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A collection of questions I had from Genki L8

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A collection of questions I had from Genki L8

Postby Shiroisan » Wed 07.13.2011 2:16 am

If you only have time to help me out with 1 question, please help me out with the 3rd one!
Thank you in advance!

1.First question: The textbook told me that the short form for なadjectives and nouns ends in だ。However, it said that the だ is usually dropped at the end of a sentence. Do they mean to say that it's actually incorrect to not do so, or that I might sound awkward/weird to not to do it, or what? Also, is it possible to use the end-of-sentence particles ね or よ WITHOUT first saying だ?


2.  ろうりするvsろうりをつくる: Which is used in what context? The idea of saying "Making Cooking" is absolutely foreign to me, so chances are I'd naturally gravitate to the former, but does that matter?


3.Final and hardest question; it taught me how to use "I think..." and "he said...", however it didn't clarify how I should say any of the following:

"he thinks..."
"I think that he said..."
"I think that he thinks"

example 1:
Problem with "he thinks..."
たけしさんはみち子さんが好きだとおもいます。
Does the above sentence imply that "Takeshi thinks he likes Michiko", or does it imply that "I think that Takeshi likes Michiko". Usually such ambiguity could be chalked up to a lack of context, however I don't see how I could make this sentence clear in ANY context? Can someone help me out with this?

Example 2
Attempt at "I think that he said..."
たけしさんはテストがあるといっているとおもいます。
No textbook taught me the above sentence, I'm just trying to fill in the blanks here and assuming it's correct... but is it?

Example 3
Attempt at "I think that he thinks"
たけしさんはテストがあるとおもうとおもいます。
I sort of did the exact same thing that I did in example 2 for this one, but I'm just as unclear as to whether or not it's right.
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Re: A collection of questions I had from Genki L8

Postby Ranja » Wed 07.13.2011 4:58 am

For the first question:

1. きみょうだ (That's peculiar.)
2. きみょうだね
3. きみょうね

All three are possible. The 3rd one sounds a bit feminine, though.

The second one:

りょうりする vs りょうりをつくる

The りょうり in the latter means 'dish', not 'cooking'. りょうりする has the meaning of 'to deal with', too, but you can use both almost interchangeably in the meaning of 'to cook'.
Last edited by Ranja on Wed 07.13.2011 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A collection of questions I had from Genki L8

Postby Ranja » Wed 07.13.2011 9:30 am

example 1:
Problem with "he thinks..."
たけしさんはみち子さんが好きだとおもいます。


Your sentence implies "I think that Takeshi likes Michiko".
If you want to say "Takeshi thinks that he likes Michiko", you need to say
たけしさんはみち子さんを好きだとおもっています。

Example 2
Attempt at "I think that he said..."
たけしさんはテストがあるといっているとおもいます。
No textbook taught me the above sentence, I'm just trying to fill in the blanks here and assuming it's correct... but is it?


Mostly correct. Because he 'said', I think ...いっとおもいます or ...いっていたとおもいます is better.

Example 3
Attempt at "I think that he thinks"
たけしさんはテストがあるとおもうとおもいます。
I sort of did the exact same thing that I did in example 2 for this one, but I'm just as unclear as to whether or not it's right.


たけしさんはテストがあるとおもっていると(わたしは)おもいます。
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Re: A collection of questions I had from Genki L8

Postby Shiroisan » Wed 07.13.2011 3:20 pm

Thank you very much, that explained so much.
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Re: A collection of questions I had from Genki L8

Postby Shiroisan » Thu 07.14.2011 11:19 pm

Hey guys... I figured that it'd be better to bump this topic than to make a new thread... About the introduction of a new word in this lesson...

もっていく。 It's listed as "To take (A thing)", however, it seems that Genki uses this word EXACTLY like もってくる、which is listed as ”(To bring (A thing)”.

They use it like this:
For the party- なにをもっていきますか?

I fail to see how that would be different from:
なにをもってきますか?



On a semi-related note, would someone be able to translate this sentence for me, exactly as it is in English, with NO context known before hand?

"What should I bring to your party?"


Thanks very much.
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Re: A collection of questions I had from Genki L8

Postby Ranja » Fri 07.15.2011 4:24 am

Shiroisan wrote:On a semi-related note, would someone be able to translate this sentence for me, exactly as it is in English, with NO context known before hand?

"What should I bring to your party?"



You can barely translate a Japanese sentence (especially conversational Japanese) into English without context, because Japanese words and English words do not have one-to-one correspondence.
For example, how do you translate わたしは きく? I inquire? I hear? or I listen?
In the case of your example, the translation depends on where you and the person to whom you speak are.
If you are at the place where the party is going to be given, you would say
パーティには なにを もってきたら よいですか?

If you are talking with a friend over the phone, and you are home and your friend is at the place where the party will be given (maybe his room), then you can use both
パーティには なにを もってきたら よいですか?
and
パーティには なにを もっていったら よいですか?
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Re: A collection of questions I had from Genki L8

Postby Shiroisan » Sat 07.16.2011 4:41 am

bump still don't understand when もっていく should be used over もってくる?? Or vice-versa??
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Re: A collection of questions I had from Genki L8

Postby Ranja » Sat 07.16.2011 6:28 am

When you use いく(go), the destination must be somewhere you are not at present.

When you use くる(come), the destination must be either where you are or where the other party is at present.

Simple, isn't it? :wink:
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Re: A collection of questions I had from Genki L8

Postby NileCat » Sat 07.16.2011 10:32 am

@Ranja-san
Excuse me but I’m confused a little bit.

Ranja wrote:If you are talking with a friend over the phone, and you are home and your friend is at the place where the party will be given (maybe his room), then you can use both
パーティには なにを もってきたら よいですか?
and
パーティには なにを もっていったら よいですか?


It seems to me that the appropriate word is もっていったら in this case. I’m not quite sure why it can be もってきたら.

A: もしもし、明日の夜、うちでパーティーをやります。ぜひ、来て下さい。
B: はい。パーティーにはなにをもっていったらよいですか?

Sorry if I misunderstand you. Do you mean that「なにをもってきたらよいですか?」is fine in this conversation as well?
It seems to me that that is a kind of similar thing to ‘take vs bring’. It is a matter of the viewpoint of the speaker. Although I understand that you can convey some nuance when you deliberately use a “kind of illogical” word at times, I personally think a logical choice exists, which is もっていく in this context. Am I misled about your explanation?
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Re: A collection of questions I had from Genki L8

Postby Ranja » Sat 07.16.2011 11:10 am

A: もしもし、明日の夜、うちでパーティーをやります。ぜひ、来て下さい。
B: はい。パーティーにはなにをもっていったらよいですか?

Sorry if I misunderstand you. Do you mean that「なにをもってきたらよいですか?」is fine in this conversation as well?


Yes, I mean it. I don't understand why もってくる cannot be used in this case.

たしかに、この場合「もっていく」のほうが筋が通っているように見えますが、実際には「もってくる」も同じように使用されます。これは、相手の立場に立ってものを言うということと、その場所へ自分も実際に行く(そしてその物を自分も使う)ということが関係しているように思えます。

A(Teacher): もしもし、あしたの体育は水泳なので水着をもってきてください。
B(Pupil): 雨で中止になったときのために、体操着ももってきたほうがいいですか。

こういう会話は、実際に普通に行われています。もちろん、「もっていく」をここで使っても何も問題ありません。どちらがよりLogicalであるかと言われれば「もっていく」かもしれませんが、「もってくる」もillogicalだとは思いません。

ちなみに、「パーティには何をお持ちしましょうか?」なら場所によらないですが、この表現は相手を選ぶし高度なので、あえて触れませんでした。
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Re: A collection of questions I had from Genki L8

Postby NileCat » Sat 07.16.2011 11:42 am

Ranja wrote:A(Teacher): もしもし、あしたの体育は水泳なので水着をもってきてください。
B(Pupil): 雨で中止になったときのために、体操着ももってきたほうがいいですか。

こういう会話は、実際に普通に行われています。もちろん、「もっていく」をここで使っても何も問題ありません。どちらがよりLogicalであるかと言われれば「もっていく」かもしれませんが、「もってくる」もillogicalだとは思いません。

Ranja-san, I agree that it is sometimes used. However, no offence, I personally find that your example sentence would sound children’s language. (EDIT: I mean "highly colloquial") That’s why you used that as a remark of a pupil, didn’t you? Well, I don’t mean to discuss about “what is natural” here because…WE HAVE FREEDOM TO TALK AS WE LIKE. Nevertheless, I just find that it might be more straightforward for many learners to see the idea of the two different words. I for one have never thought that they are interchangeable. :bow:

EDITED :blush:
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Re: A collection of questions I had from Genki L8

Postby Ongakuka » Sat 07.16.2011 12:20 pm

I think that when くる is used in a place where it is logical to use いく, it changes the nuance as to sounds as if you are speaking from the listeners perspective (or in the case of Ranjaさんs example, the pupil would be speaking from the perspective of the teacher.)

Would you agree?

Also, as Nilecatさん suggests, I assume that it is not really 'proper' to use くる in such a place, but like many forms of speech that are not 'proper,' it has entered common spoken language.
なぜなら、おまえは・・・・・・人形だ
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Re: A collection of questions I had from Genki L8

Postby Ranja » Sat 07.16.2011 12:23 pm

I don't think it sounds children's language.

B. パソコン(PC)だけでなく、外付けハードディスクも持ってきたほうがいいか?

The phrase like this is used everywhere. In this example, Person B is supposed to go to the place and do some work there with his coworker(s). If Person B is only to bring the stuff and won't assist any PC-setup work there, he might have said

B. パソコンだけでなく、外付けハードディスクも持っていったほうがいいか?


Of course, this kind of minor difference is of little value to language learners (or to natives also). :up:
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Re: A collection of questions I had from Genki L8

Postby NileCat » Sat 07.16.2011 12:49 pm

Ranja-san! :wink:
Now I got your point. And I totally agree that it sounds natural in the context. But as you may know, it is different from the given conversation about the party. The Person B is referring to that he will be there with Person B BRINGING the HDD, right? Well, at least it sounds so to me.
But please don’t get me wrong, Ranja-san! :pray: I’m enjoying discussing about a trivial thing with a native speaker! For me, this forum is a fun place that gives me a lot of good opportunities to think about things that I usually take them for granted. :D
Let's enjoy Japanese language from an objective viewpoint. :)

And I swear, I repeat, I swear the following conversation is grammatically WRONG! :D

A: もしもし、明日の夜、うちでパーティーをやります。ぜひ、来て下さい。
B: はい。パーティーにはなにをもってきたらよいですか?


A: もしもし、おれのPC壊れたんだけど。来てよ・
O え? おれが行くの、HDD持って? そこへ? (持っていくの?)
X え? おれが来るの、HDD持って? そこへ? (持ってくるの?)
(O おまえはおれがそこに持って来るのがいいとか言っちゃってるわけ?)
The second one sounds weird or highly colloquial and exceptional reply which can be acceptable only between close friends. If you were my son, I'll correct it. If you were my student, you can't get A. If you are a total stranger to me, I don't care, though.
で、そのパーティーってのには何を持ってくればいいわけよ。would be ok.
This tricky sentence would sound natural. That's highly colloquial. But since the original question was not about the colloquial exceptions, I'm afraid you didn't answer to the OP's question which was asking for the explanation of the difference properly. If you see it a minor thing, that's ok. But I don't think it is a minor issue for the OP.
:P

EDIT:
私だって教科書通りなんて好きくないし、文法なんざどうでも全然OKだと思うよ。けどさ、文法を勉強して質問してる外国の人に、持っていくと持ってくるのどっちでもOKって言うのはいくらなんでもちょいと乱暴過ぎゃしませんかって思っただけですよ。( ゚д゚ )
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Re: A collection of questions I had from Genki L8

Postby play_on_my_words » Sat 07.16.2011 5:22 pm

I thought I would try to help out with the くる and いく problem. I have a book that goes into a little bit of explanation.

Here's the excerpt from the book:

When the verb くる 'come' is used, the speaker's viewpoint i somewhere close to the arrival point. When くる is used as an auxiliary verb, the viewpoint is the point to which an action is directed or a chance proceeds.

When the verb いく 'go' is used, the speaker's viewpoint is somewhere close to the departure point. When いく is used as an auxiliary verb, the viewpoint is the point from which an action is directed or a changed proceeds.

:

Anyway that's from the book. Maybe it will help to sort out ideas.
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