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A collection of questions I had from Genki L8

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Re: A collection of questions I had from Genki L8

Postby Ongakuka » Sat 07.16.2011 5:36 pm

私だって教科書通りなんて好きくないし、文法なんざどうでも全然OKだと思うよ。けどさ、文法を勉強して質問してる外国の人に、持っていくと持ってくるのどっちでもOKって言うのはいくらなんでもちょいと乱暴過ぎゃしませんかって思っただけですよ。( ゚д゚ )


逆にこんな日本語が習いたい :P

Seriously though, it's a good point. We can all agree that 持っていった was the correct and logical word for that example, but the question is, how far is 持ってくる wrong. Nilecatさん, you say it must be completely wrong, and perhaps you are right. (もちろん、私は判断できるわけがありません)But sometimes (I don't know about this particular case) it is so 微妙 that native speakers find it difficult to come to a conclusion. I know this from teaching English, and arguing with other English speakers. We don't want to teach incorrect forms, and we want to avoid slang and 'uneducated' sounding forms, but at the same time we have to teach language which is commonly used, colloquial language. Therein lies the problem :(
なぜなら、おまえは・・・・・・人形だ
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Re: A collection of questions I had from Genki L8

Postby Ranja » Sat 07.16.2011 11:52 pm

NileCat wrote:And I swear, I repeat, I swear the following conversation is grammatically WRONG! :D

A: もしもし、明日の夜、うちでパーティーをやります。ぜひ、来て下さい。
B: はい。パーティーにはなにをもってきたらよいですか?


A: もしもし、おれのPC壊れたんだけど。来てよ・
O え? おれが行くの、HDD持って? そこへ? (持っていくの?)
X え? おれが来るの、HDD持って? そこへ? (持ってくるの?)
(O おまえはおれがそこに持って来るのがいいとか言っちゃってるわけ?)


Grammatically WRONG? I don't think so. You mean 'semantically'?
Well, my example was not intended to be like yours, but to be in the same context as the 'パーティへ' one.
Yes, from only the short conversation, perhaps more than 90% of natives will choose もっていったらよいですか as the correct answer.
But in real life, depending on how intimate the inviter is to you and whether you know and can visualize in your mind the room the party will be held in, it is completely natural to say もってくる in this context. I don't see why you don't understand that.

NileCat wrote:EDIT:
私だって教科書通りなんて好きくないし、文法なんざどうでも全然OKだと思うよ。けどさ、文法を勉強して質問してる外国の人に、持っていくと持ってくるのどっちでもOKって言うのはいくらなんでもちょいと乱暴過ぎゃしませんかって思っただけですよ。( ゚д゚ )


I might be so, but "facts are facts and will not disappear on account of your likes".
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Re: A collection of questions I had from Genki L8

Postby NileCat » Sun 07.17.2011 12:09 pm

As I said before, "sth sounds natural" is subjective. I apologize that I used the word "wrong". I tried to use it as a kind of “ironical humor”, which obviously didn’t work. :cry:

Ranja wrote: Yes, from only the short conversation, perhaps more than 90% of natives will choose もっていったらよいですか as the correct answer.
But in real life, depending on how intimate the inviter is to you and whether you know and can visualize in your mind the room the party will be held in, it is completely natural to say もってくる in this context. I don't see why you don't understand that.

I am just one of the 90%. Their perspective is what I originally wanted to point out after reading your answer to the OP's question. :?

EDIT:
Re-reading this thread after weeks, I was kind of surprised to see the discommunication here. :shock:
And, for the record, I for one wouldn't trust anyone who insists that something is totally natural when he himself admit 90% of the people may see it weird. That means all they say is nothing but "That's natural because I use it and I know better than thou". This is not a discussion, I'm afraid.
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Re: A collection of questions I had from Genki L8

Postby Shiroisan » Sun 07.17.2011 6:00 pm

Wow I feel stupid. I just never realized that the いく in もっていく was the same as 行く。

Thanks for clarifying that you guys.
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Re: A collection of questions I had from Genki L8

Postby Shiroisan » Wed 05.08.2013 1:52 am

How did one slip through? This is new. And on a beginner post of mine no less. :x
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