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JLPT N5 V-たり V-たり problem!And -なくちゃいけない prob!

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JLPT N5 V-たり V-たり problem!And -なくちゃいけない prob!

Postby lafemme » Thu 09.22.2011 8:09 am

Hello, everyone =)

So, I`m really a "little" bit tired of such grammar definitions......What I`m talking about is:

V-たり + V-たり at http://www.daiuinternational.com/jlpt/N5/grammar.html they say to use "before verb stems".
1 question: WHY before ? When it`s goes after verb stem!

2 What verb stem ? Why should I guess it.....or google it....So what verb base should I use ?

Do I need to use Plain Past and than add り? Like: Nomu ----> Nonda+り => Non dari ???

Also when shoul I use -なくちゃいけない ??? Again what base of the verb ???

Am I already overworked, that I really don`t understand anything.......=(((((((((

疲れました.....

Thank you in advance very very very very much!!! :) :) :)

++++++++++++++
Finally I have found at this site about tari tari (cause it wasnt working while ago). But I still need to be checked (my example) cause I`m lost!!

Still DON`T understand!!! :( thejapanesepage.com says:
1- Take the た form of a verb (simple past)
2 - Add たり

If this is true we will have: Taberu (dict form) tabeta (plain past form) =>>> tabeta + tari = tabetatari ??? WTF ? While in example it`s tabetari ! So it`s like ta + ta = ta not tata ????

In all examples I see that plain past + ri
I`m going crazy.......really.........I hate grammar =\\\\\
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Re: JLPT N5 V-たり V-たり problem!And -なくちゃいけない prob!

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Thu 09.22.2011 10:00 am

Sounds like you're encountering a bunch of bad explanations. It's plain past + り.
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Re: JLPT N5 V-たり V-たり problem!And -なくちゃいけない prob!

Postby Ranja » Thu 09.22.2011 10:11 am

Добрый день, lafemme :)

Actually, the verb stem of "taberu" is "ta", not "tabe".
The past tense "tabeta" is made of [ta-be] + ta, where ta is an auxiliary verb.
Have you learned that Japanese verbs have 6 conjugation forms?
The ending of the verb "taberu" changes like this:

1. べ (be)
2. べ (be)
3. べる (beru)
4. べる (beru)
5. べれ (bere)
6. べろ (bero)

You might wonder why "tabe" is not the verb stem regardless of the always appearing "be".
It might become clearer if you know the old form of "taberu" -- "tabu", which changed like this:

1. べ (be)
2. べ (be)
3. ぶ (bu)
4. ぶる (buru)
5. ぶれ (bure)
6. べろ (bero)
(By the way, there was another form for simple past: tabeki, which is tabe(No.2 form) + ki.)

So, by "Take the た form of a verb (simple past)" the writer means that you use the No.2 form of a verb. In the case of "taberu", it is "tabe".
Then append "tari" to it to make "tabetari".
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Re: JLPT N5 V-たり V-たり problem!And -なくちゃいけない prob!

Postby squarezebra » Thu 09.22.2011 11:41 am

Miru + kiku + yomu + nomu
見る、聴く、読む、飲む

週末にはテレビを見た+り、音楽を聴いた+り、本を読んだ+り、ビールを飲んだ+りします
shuumatsu ni terebi o mitari, ongaku o kiitari, hon o yondari, biru o nondari shimasu
on weekends I watch television, listen to music, read a book and drink beer.

tari tari form requires that you simply add 'ri' to end of the simple past of the verb, and then you finish with the verb suru (to do). The tense of suru dictates the tense of the whole sentence.

Its that simple :whistle:
Last edited by squarezebra on Thu 09.22.2011 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JLPT N5 V-たり V-たり problem!And -なくちゃいけない prob!

Postby richvh » Thu 09.22.2011 12:27 pm

Hopefully everyone's cleared up your confusion about たり. However no one has touched on your other question:

Also when should I use -なくちゃいけない ??? Again what base of the verb ???


なくちゃいけない (=なくてはいけない when not contracted) is placed after the negative stem.

学校へ行かなくちゃいけない I have to go to school.
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Re: JLPT N5 V-たり V-たり problem!And -なくちゃいけない prob!

Postby lafemme » Thu 09.22.2011 3:10 pm

Yudan Taiteki
Got it in one =))!
Thanx a LOT, your example is really simple for me!I was expecting it!)))Thank you for the help =))

Ranja
Добрый =)) но уже вечер))
Большое спасибо за помощь =)) But I`m a little confused with Stem forms a little. Cause I was learning Verb Bases according to this simple example:
First Group or Godan Verbs: Change their last vowel into a i u e o base (f.i: Nomu->Nom+i=Nomi)I keep in mind that some vebrs will be wa at 1st base!!))
Second Group or Ichidan Verbs: Remove ru and it will be 1 and 2d base of the verbs, and 3,4,5 bases are simple!
So this is how I memorised it =))) So I`m at stage when I have a lot of information in my mind, but it isn`t structurised yet. So trying to memorise everything clearly =)
Thanx a lot for your information! I will use it in future!

squarezebra
Thank you also =)) for helping me and posting an examples!!!))) Now I got it :D :D

richvh
Special thanx to you :) cause this form is really important for me too =)) And I got it too :D :D
I feel relieved !!!)))

Thank you all =))) you are so amazing!!!!I appreciate your help so much!!! :) :P :D :D
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Re: JLPT N5 V-たり V-たり problem!And -なくちゃいけない prob!

Postby squarezebra » Thu 09.22.2011 4:50 pm

I'm with Yudan Taiteki, whatever you are reading seems to be making this way more complex than it needs to be. Associating verb bases with numbers and codes etc just makes things more complicated in the long run if you ask me. And the trick is not to try to learn them all at once, but to learn them one at a time... A Basic Dictionary of Japanese Grammar is fantastic for this as it gives you LOADS of example sentences to practice with for every grammar point.
Have you read Tae Kim's guide to Japanese Grammar?
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Re: JLPT N5 V-たり V-たり problem!And -なくちゃいけない prob!

Postby Ranja » Fri 09.23.2011 6:47 am

Здравствуй, lafemme

"Табэру" принадлежает к Шимо-ичидан группе глагола.
У японского языка есть пять групп глагола.

My explanation of the verb stem might be different from that of your textbook, because in Japan べ is not considered to be b and e separately.
I conformed to the explanation given in Japanese schools. But another definition of the verb stem is, of course, possible.

You can think of "V-tari" as "(simple past) + ri" because they both actually result in the same form.
(To look up the dictionary, you need to check the "tari" entry.)

But be aware that the No.2 form (Рэнъёкэй) can be used to enumerate actions without "tari".

A. Terebi o mi, ongaku o kiki, водка o nonda.
B. Terebi o mi, ongaku o kiki, водка o nondari shita.

(Strictly speaking, the B with single "tari" may not be grammatically right.)


Пока! :wave:
Last edited by Ranja on Tue 09.27.2011 3:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JLPT N5 V-たり V-たり problem!And -なくちゃいけない prob!

Postby furrykef » Fri 09.23.2011 1:05 pm

I prefer to analyze the "be" as part of the stem because that part never changes no matter how you conjugate the verb. With most languages we consider the verb stem to be the part that doesn't change.
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Re: JLPT N5 V-たり V-たり problem!And -なくちゃいけない prob!

Postby Ranja » Fri 09.23.2011 8:51 pm

I forgot to say something.

The explanation given in http://www.daiuinternational.com/jlpt/N5/grammar.html is misleading. So, you must treat it with care.

For example, they say that "mashou" is to be appended to a verb stem.
But the verb stem of, say, "hashiru" (to run) is "hashi" and you don't say "hashi mashou" but "hashiri mashou". You must use the Ren'youkei (No. 2) form.
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