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Hi, (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

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Re: Hi, (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Postby phreadom » Thu 10.06.2011 6:57 pm

naranero wrote:does anyone like stephen fry? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY


And I just want to respond to this because I think this shows a misguided and snarky attempt at dismissing the helpful advice here to mind your proverbial p's and q's about putting a tiny bit of effort into one's writing.

As Fry himself pointed out, there are most certainly times at which using more "proper" English is in fact appropriate.

Stephen Fry wrote:... most people accept the need to smarten up under some circumstances, it's only considerate. Context, convention, and circumstance are all.


And coming into a language learning forum where one of the rules in fact is to take time to write properly, both to show respect for those teachers taking their valuable time to teach you for free, and for the other language learners who might not be native English speakers and who look to others here as, even indirectly, both examples of and teachers of the English language.

From the forum rules thread:
AJBryant wrote:When you write, please write with proper capitalization, punctuation, grammar, and syntax. In short, like a literate adult instead of a text-messaging chimpanzee.

Not everyone here is a native speaker of English, and it would help to make your posts as clear as possible. In addition, it shows a modicum of respect. If you don't respect us enough to take the time write like an educated adult, why should we take the time to respond to you?


Dropping a Stephen Fry video and thinking it absolves you of any responsibility to put more effort than a 5 year old into your writing on a language learning forum frankly steams my britches a little in its audacity.

I just felt the need to clarify that, since while I do in fact love Stephen Fry, and happen to agree with most of what's said in that video from a linguistic standpoint... your use of it here is improper to put it mildly.

I think I was more than polite about this issue at the start, even if Shiroisan wasn't. But to keep arguing with site admins about your right to type like a lazy kid on a language learning forum while expecting us to spend our valuable time trying to help teach you for free... that's a little rude I think.

So as a native English speaker, either take the time to write "I'm" instead of "im", especially when asked to do so by the admins on a language learning forum, or go find another website where people don't mind if you, as AJBryant put it, type like "a text-messaging chimpanzee".

Seriously... I didn't care at first... but your rude and obstinate attitude about being asked to type a little more "correctly" just smacks of disrespect for the people here who are taking their own time to try to help you.
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Re: Hi, (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Postby Shiroisan » Fri 10.07.2011 12:30 am

naranero wrote:
Shiroisan wrote:It's just very clear to me that it's not accidental typos or laziness- it's very foreign useage. Just be honest. :neutral

It's October 4th and I just checked back on Amazon and it now says(that goes here) they don't expect to recieve the book until the 10th or 11th? and that(not here) THEN they'll ship it out?

Was this just for me?

i ll change mine if you change yours


If you had to refer to posts outside this thread to find enough mistakes, then clearly I'm not making enough typos... Sorry I'll try to make more so that maybe you can carry out childish retribution.

What you pointed out were subtle errors that native speakers make all the time, which don't sound unnatural in conversation. With you, on the other hand, the errors are very unusual, unnatural and running a spell-check wouldn't fix them. I'm still 100% sure THAT (<---if you insist) you're being deceptive about your native language. However, I won't pursue it further if you're still unwilling to admit the truth.
Good day.
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Re: Hi, (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Postby AJBryant » Fri 10.07.2011 9:26 pm

naranero wrote:does anyone like stephen fry? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY honestly this is a waste of time, i couldve spent my time talking about anime, jpop, or how sa and ki hiragana are different from my 1985 book


I *love* Stephen Fry. Brilliant fellow. Witty as hell. Almost want to hate him. :)

Welcome to the party. :)
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Re: Hi, (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Postby AJBryant » Fri 10.07.2011 9:31 pm

phreadom wrote:If it makes anyone feel any better, even I don't have a clue what the "less/fewer" debate even is. :P That's pedantry on a whole other level as far as I'm concerned. ;)


"Less" is for things that can't be counted (water, courage, hope, air) and "fewer" is for things that *can* be counted (jars, dreams, redheads, wombats).

"People living under tyranny have less hope and fewer dreams."

"There is less snow on the mountain this month."

"There are fewer CDs in my collection than I thought."

Exception: "He's a coward, he has less balls than I thought." That's because "balls" is a euphemism for the uncountable "courage" rather than an actual reference to his dangly bits.
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Re: Hi, (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Postby phreadom » Fri 10.07.2011 11:15 pm

AJBryant wrote:
phreadom wrote:If it makes anyone feel any better, even I don't have a clue what the "less/fewer" debate even is. :P That's pedantry on a whole other level as far as I'm concerned. ;)


"Less" is for things that can't be counted (water, courage, hope, air) and "fewer" is for things that *can* be counted (jars, dreams, redheads, wombats).

"People living under tyranny have less hope and fewer dreams."

"There is less snow on the mountain this month."

"There are fewer CDs in my collection than I thought."

Exception: "He's a coward, he has less balls than I thought." That's because "balls" is a euphemism for the uncountable "courage" rather than an actual reference to his dangly bits.


なるほど、 わかります! ありがとうございました! :bow:  (hopefully I got that right, your explanations make perfect sense to me.) ^_^
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Re: Hi, (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Postby micahcowan » Sun 10.09.2011 4:05 am

AJBryant wrote:"Less" is for things that can't be counted (water, courage, hope, air) and "fewer" is for things that *can* be counted (jars, dreams, redheads, wombats).


Another way of thinking of it, is that if there can be a few of them, there may also be fewer of them. :)

Of course, hope may be a tricky example, in that one can have less hope, but one can also have fewer hopes (note that non-"fewer" words can't be pluralized). And of course there is a different air that can go with "fewer": "She puts on fewer airs since I put her in her place." Water can technically be pluralized ("sailing to safer waters"), but it's hard to imagine a sensible phrase where one could say "fewer waters"...

All of which of course is really beside the main point phreadom was trying to make... :)
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Re: Hi, (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Postby phreadom » Sun 10.09.2011 4:53 am

And that's the fun of language. ^_^ Nothing wrong with that. It's fun food for thought about some of the nuances of English. Maybe some of the non-natives will enjoy trying to wrap their heads around it. :D
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Re: Hi, (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Postby Snowflake » Sun 10.09.2011 5:14 pm

The "10 Items or Less" aisle always makes me chuckle (fantastic Morgan Freeman movie, by the way). I think I've only seen a "10 Items or Fewer" aisle once.
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Re: Hi, (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Postby Shiroisan » Sun 10.09.2011 5:50 pm

Snowflake wrote:The "10 Items or Less" aisle always makes me chuckle (fantastic Morgan Freeman movie, by the way). I think I've only seen a "10 Items or Fewer" aisle once.


... I'm confused. Math uses the term "less than" frequently for numbers... Surely our textbooks can't be wrong?
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Re: Hi, (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Postby Hyperworm » Sun 10.09.2011 7:24 pm

How ironic ... we've entered into the exact discussion I said we wouldn't.
And in fact, I said no one would bring it up, but it looks like I'm the one who started it. :lol:

The prescriptivist would say:
You have less than half a gallon left.
You have fewer than 10 items.
The number of items you have is less than 10.

Interestingly, the opposite of "less" is "more" even for uncountable items.
You have more than half a gallon left.
You have more than 10 items.

But not for math, where it's "greater". It seems math does strange things.
The number of items you have is greater than 10.

( * You have greater than 10 items. ) would probably be thought of as an error, or at least strange.

Less/fewer isn't really an important distinction. You can get by without ever using "fewer", though it does sound nicer than "less" in some cases (I like this one I found on google: "fewer words and more action").
fun translation snippets | need something translated?
BTC@1KMZXgoWiDshQis5Z7feCx8jaiP4QAB2ks
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Re: Hi, (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Postby chikara » Sun 10.09.2011 8:51 pm

I'd just like to add that I'm a big fan of Stephen Fry also. :wink:

Oh, and welcome to the forum naranero-san. :wave:
Don't complain to me that people kick you when you're down. It's your own fault for lying there
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Re: Hi, (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Postby AJBryant » Mon 10.10.2011 4:40 pm

Shiroisan wrote:
Snowflake wrote:The "10 Items or Less" aisle always makes me chuckle (fantastic Morgan Freeman movie, by the way). I think I've only seen a "10 Items or Fewer" aisle once.


... I'm confused. Math uses the term "less than" frequently for numbers... Surely our textbooks can't be wrong?


That's because NUMBERS (themselves) aren't counted.

Ten is LESS than four.

In some cases, you have a choice:

Ten cows is LESS than twenty cows. (Note the use of "is" -- the "ten cows" is a single unit that is being compared to another single unit of twenty. Treat it like "a six pack.")

You can also say "Ten cows are fewer than twenty cows" when you're thinking in terms purely of quantity of cows.

It's the same reason a prison sentence of five years should be treated as a single concept when we say "five years isn't that long." We're talking about the TIMESPAN, the SENTENCE, rather than the individual years.
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Re: Hi, (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Postby Snowflake » Mon 10.10.2011 5:03 pm

AJBryant wrote:
...Ten is LESS than four...



Now I'm confused... :P
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Re: Hi, (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Postby Shiroisan » Mon 10.10.2011 6:04 pm

AJBryant wrote:
Shiroisan wrote:
Snowflake wrote:The "10 Items or Less" aisle always makes me chuckle (fantastic Morgan Freeman movie, by the way). I think I've only seen a "10 Items or Fewer" aisle once.


... I'm confused. Math uses the term "less than" frequently for numbers... Surely our textbooks can't be wrong?


That's because NUMBERS (themselves) aren't counted.

Ten is LESS than four.

In some cases, you have a choice:

Ten cows is LESS than twenty cows. (Note the use of "is" -- the "ten cows" is a single unit that is being compared to another single unit of twenty. Treat it like "a six pack.")

You can also say "Ten cows are fewer than twenty cows" when you're thinking in terms purely of quantity of cows.

It's the same reason a prison sentence of five years should be treated as a single concept when we say "five years isn't that long." We're talking about the TIMESPAN, the SENTENCE, rather than the individual years.



I think you hit the nail on the head with that post. わかりました!
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Re: Hi, (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Postby kuri-chan » Sun 01.01.2012 6:41 am

Wow...I just joined and I clicked on this thread because the original poster had so many replies! I thought, "Wow...28 replies?? What in the world happened here?"

Interesting first impression! I'm only slightly kidding, as these things tend to happen in almost any forum. I'm still surprised though at how it dragged out. (I wouldn't be honest if I didn't say I didn't also immediately find the first person's post as sounding like a non-native English speaker, but I can't believe it came to this!)

I decided I don't care about any of that anymore - I just want to know the details of this 1985 book with the differences in it. I want to know what it shows compared to what we know would be shown today.

Could you possibly scan it and just crop down to the letters themselves, so as to not show the book? Don't want to break any rules or anything. I'm very curious about this.

And this is my very first post. Hello everyone! I am using a computer at work and don't have the ability to type any Japanese characters at the moment.

Chris
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