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verbs that can only take "no"

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verbs that can only take "no"

Postby yangmuye » Thu 03.01.2012 2:01 pm

I'm surprised when I read this page
It says that these words can't take こと.
山田さんを見る       → 山田さんが寝ているのを見る
    山田さんが見える
    山田さんの歌を聞く     → 山田さんが歌っているのを聞く
    山田さんの歌が聞こえる 
    山田さんを待つ       → 山田さんが来るのを待つ
    山田さんを手伝う      → 山田さんが料理するのを手伝う
    山田さんを止める      → 山田さんが部屋を出るのを止める
    地震を感じる        → 地震でビルが揺れるのを感じる
    山田さんを撮る/写す/描く → 山田さんが遊んでいるのを撮る/写す/描く

As for 見る, 聞く, 撮る, 写す, 描く, the の here actually means ところ rather than こと. If you use こと, it will mean 云う言(こと) rather than 出来事(ごと).
Of course, 山田さんが寝ているの may be just another way to say 寝ている山田さん as suggested by the author.

However, is it really wrong to say 山田さんが来ることを待つ, 山田さんが料理することを手伝う, 山田さんが部屋を出ることを止める?
And is it possible to say 地震でビルが揺れることを感じる or ~ことを感じる?
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Re: verbs that can only take "no"

Postby NileCat » Fri 03.02.2012 7:29 am

yangmuye wrote:However, is it really wrong to say 山田さんが来ることを待つ, 山田さんが料理することを手伝う, 山田さんが部屋を出ることを止める?
And is it possible to say 地震でビルが揺れることを感じる or ~ことを感じる?

They might not be totally wrong and people use them from time to time in reality, however, I’d say all of them sound awkward, not to say weird.

EDIT:
If you are a ghost and if I feel you like you are here, I'd say あなたがここにいることを感じる.(But it would sound...modern?...like...some modern expressions used by young people only, IMHO)

EDIT2:
~ことを~する is sometimes used intentionally by, say, politicians or lawyers in order to describe the fact more "accurately" or to put "emphasis" on it, which unfortunately sounds just redundant, to "ordinary" people, I think.
[A bad example] 母親が、料理をすることを、手伝うということは、子供にとって、至極当然のことであります。(It is a kind of...the territory of "elocution")
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Re: verbs that can only take "no"

Postby yangmuye » Fri 03.02.2012 9:17 am

Thank you for clarifying, NileCat! ありがとうございました。

I saw a lot of web-pages with ことを手伝う, ことを待つ...
I even found such a tutorial. It says
 ② 準体言の「の」
  体言(名詞)に準じる働きをする「の」のことで、「の=こと・もの」
  などの名詞に置き換えることができる場合の用法を言います。
 (例)雨がやむのを待つ。
        ↓
    雨がやむことを待つ。

:shock:

Any way, It's suggested by may people that using こと with these verbs are not so natural.

It seems to me that nouns meaning ~こと are subtly different from ~すること. They seem to be able to express more concrete concepts, despite that they are still abstract nouns in the context.
E.g.
山田の料理・仕事・宿題・掃除…を手伝う・助ける
山田の回答・光臨…を待つ
山田の離婚…を止める
山田の演奏…を聞く
ビルの地震での揺れを感じる
Are they still unnatural?

EDIT:
It seems that the 止める in that page is とめる rather than やめる...
Last edited by yangmuye on Fri 03.02.2012 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: verbs that can only take "no"

Postby NileCat » Fri 03.02.2012 10:06 am

Well, this issue seems to contain the tough question which is “what is natural and what is unnatural in our language? (in any language)”.
So, please note that the following is only my personal opinion.

TO ME, this sentence sounds VERY weird.
山田の料理(仕事・宿題・掃除)することを手伝う
I’d phrase it 山田の料理を手伝う or 山田が料理するのを手伝う instead. 山田が料理することを手伝う might be slightly better. I could accept it in the daily conversation. (If it's a non-native speaker's remark, it'd be totally acceptable to me)

This one doesn’t sound that weird TO ME.
山田が離婚することを止める
However, I’d phrase it like 山田の離婚を止める or 山田が離婚するのを止める.
And, well, this 山田が離婚することを止める sounds as awkward as 雨がやむことを待つ TO ME. But it's acceptable.

山田の演奏することを聞く or ビルの地震での揺れることを感じる sounds almost WRONG to me. I mean, I wouldn’t accept them as “normal” language IYAM.

I can’t explain why, though.
:D
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Re: verbs that can only take "no"

Postby yangmuye » Fri 03.02.2012 11:35 am

Think you again, NileCat-san.

山田の演奏することを聞く or ビルの地震での揺れることを感じる sounds almost WRONG to me. I mean, I wouldn’t accept them as “normal” language IYAM.

I mean “山田の演奏を聞く” and “ ビルの地震での揺れを感じる”
“ビルの地震での揺れることを感じる” is certainly grammatically wrong. :D
揺れ is a noun meaning 揺れること, but seems OK to say “揺れを感じる” to me.

I can’t explain why, though.

I see. It's not something strictly logical as there are so many people using ことを待つ and ことを手伝う.
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Re: verbs that can only take "no"

Postby NileCat » Fri 03.02.2012 11:48 am

yangmuye-san, most of the google results seem to be of something like "楽しいことを待つ" or "いろんなことを手伝う". :)
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Re: verbs that can only take "no"

Postby yangmuye » Fri 03.02.2012 12:38 pm

Really? :roll:
I like to beguile Google with such kind of query “が*ことを待つ” :D

But I only got 88 results from “が*ことを手伝う”. It's clearly not common.
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Re: verbs that can only take "no"

Postby NileCat » Fri 03.02.2012 12:52 pm

Yeah, you're right!
For instance, その日が来ることを待ち続ける doesn't sound off. But 先生が来ることを待ちました sounds very weird to me for some reason.
Please let me know if you find the reasonable grammatical explanation. :wink:
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Re: verbs that can only take "no"

Postby furrykef » Thu 03.08.2012 6:39 pm

The general rule is you should use の with verbs of perception when you want to describe, well, an action that you're perceiving.

彼がピアノを弾くのを聞く -- I hear him play the piano
彼がピアノを弾くことを聞く -- I hear that he plays the piano
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Re: verbs that can only take "no"

Postby SomeCallMeChris » Thu 03.08.2012 8:37 pm

furrykef wrote:The general rule is you should use の with verbs of perception when you want to describe, well, an action that you're perceiving.

彼がピアノを弾くのを聞く -- I hear him play the piano
彼がピアノを弾くことを聞く -- I hear that he plays the piano

That is an incredibly useful rule to keep in mind. I usually get that distinction right on a case by case basis, but I hadn't before heard it put so clearly! Thank you ;)

I like the example too, I'm sure I've seen の・こと contrast examples before, but that one seems much more illustrative somehow.
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