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Do these 2 sentences mean the same thing?

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Do these 2 sentences mean the same thing?

Postby QuakerBits » Mon 03.05.2012 3:36 pm

I'm studying, but it only says "Compare", then translates the first sentence. I'm assuming they do mean the same thing..... but just to be on the safe side.....

→私は部屋を掃除しました。

→私は部屋の掃除をしました。
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Re: Do these 2 sentences mean the same thing?

Postby Ongakuka » Mon 03.05.2012 4:45 pm

The meaning is the same but the nuance is slightly different.

1. I cleaned the room

2. I did the cleaning of the room

the latter, of course, is an unnatural construction in English.
なぜなら、おまえは・・・・・・人形だ
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Re: Do these 2 sentences mean the same thing?

Postby QuakerBits » Mon 03.05.2012 5:40 pm

Makes sense! Thanks for the explanation :D
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Re: Do these 2 sentences mean the same thing?

Postby Shiroisan » Mon 03.05.2012 9:34 pm

I wouldn't say it reads as "I did the cleaning of the room".
"heya no souji" is akin to the quantified noun: "room-cleaning".
It simply reads as:

I did room-cleaning.


Which should be extremely straight-forward and understandable as an English-speaker.
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Re: Do these 2 sentences mean the same thing?

Postby yangmuye » Mon 03.05.2012 11:58 pm

Some words take ノ rather than ニ, ヲ, ガ etc.
I don't think there is any difference in meaning.

○部屋の掃除をする ○部屋を掃除する
○子供の世話をする ?○子供を世話する(should be correct, but seems less common)
○友人の世話になる ?○友人に世話になる
○|人・事|の邪魔をする
○私は|の・する事|が苦手だ ○|の・する事|が・は私の苦手だ
○|~の・~する|思いをする・がする ○~と思う・思える・思われる
……
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Re: Do these 2 sentences mean the same thing?

Postby SomeCallMeChris » Tue 03.06.2012 11:14 am

I don't believe that's what is happening in the grammar; の cannot mark an object of a verb, it is used to show the relationship between two nouns. It just happens that in the case of する verbs, the kanji compound is usually a noun that means that action.

The relationship in English is, in the original example, something like,
the cleaning of a room, or, room cleaning (I don't think it really matters which you choose except to make it fit the English better, they essentially mean the same thing). We could even say "room's cleaning" but I don't think the possessive is a good fit for most English grammar.

We can use that compound noun phrase in other ways,

部屋の掃除が嫌いです:I dislike the cleaning of the room -> more naturally -> I don't like cleaning my room. (With the context assumption that the speaker is talking about his own room, but of course, with context, the speaker could be complaining about other rooms.)
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Re: Do these 2 sentences mean the same thing?

Postby yangmuye » Tue 03.06.2012 5:47 pm

It just happens that in the case of する verbs, the kanji compound is usually a noun that means that action.

Well, there are many words listed under サ変動詞 in dictionaries, but some words use ~する as usual as ~をする, while some never become ~をする, and some are almost always ~をする. There are even words which are usually used with を与える・受ける or other “light verbs” rather than スル, despite of the fact that they are listed as サ変動詞.

And It's off-topic, but I even used to want to propose a new term called 連体格を採る述語.

あの子は綺麗[な]髪だ
止めた方がい[い]感じだ・感じがする
そうす[る]つもりだ (Its verb form is never used for this meaning)

This pattern is frequently used but doesn't apply to all verbs/nouns.
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Re: Do these 2 sentences mean the same thing?

Postby jimbreen » Tue 03.06.2012 7:47 pm

yangmuye wrote:Well, there are many words listed under サ変動詞 in dictionaries, but some words use ~する as usual as ~をする, while some never become ~をする, and some are almost always ~をする. There are even words which are usually used with を与える・受ける or other “light verbs” rather than スル, despite of the fact that they are listed as サ変動詞.

FWIW, users of WWWJDIC, etc. will notice that I label サ変動詞/サ変名詞 as "vs". That tag is only applied to the ~する cases; not ~をする. The latter are really too common to attempt to tag that way.

And It's off-topic, but I even used to want to propose a new term called 連体格を採る述語.

あの子は綺麗[な]髪だ
止めた方がい[い]感じだ・感じがする
そうす[る]つもりだ (Its verb form is never used for this meaning)

This pattern is frequently used but doesn't apply to all verbs/nouns.


Hmmm. Is it really 連体格?

Is そうすつもりだ used? I see from Google it gets 5 hits, when そうするつもりだ gets 703,000.

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