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japanese doubts of my translation

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japanese doubts of my translation

Postby tokyotower » Mon 03.26.2012 8:52 pm

Hi to all,
I'm trying to understand this japanese poem:

視線 気持ち 鼓動 うごく瞬間にほら
your glance, your feelings, the throbbing , I'll move in a twinkle ? (I don' t understand 動く瞬間にほら)

きみをすきになって行く (i'm (going) to (become) falling in love wit you is correct?)

あしたに 翳す太 陽のよう (Like shading from the sun on tomorrow)??

溢れる輝きを 力強くありのままに
(The overflowing radiance , stay strong as is it/ I am/we are)?

刻まれたときのいみを知る (I know the meaning of time carved?

Thank you to everyone who would help me :pray:
Last edited by tokyotower on Tue 03.27.2012 8:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: japanese doubts of my translation

Postby SomeCallMeChris » Mon 03.26.2012 10:15 pm

ほら does not mean twinkle, though I'm not sure what it does mean
http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?p=%E3%81 ... =0&dtype=3
http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?enc=UTF- ... &pagenum=1
but there's only one example of にほら on ALC,
http://eow.alc.co.jp/search?q=%E3%81%AB ... B%E3%82%89

君をすきになって行く (i'm (going) to (become) falling in love wit you is correct?)
Yes, that's pretty much 'I'm falling in love with you.' Because it is, the ほら of the previous line could be the exclamation attached to this line, since lines and sentences don't have to match up in poetry.

翳す does not mean 'to shade'
http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?p=%E7%BF ... =0&dtype=3


溢れる輝きを力強くありのままに
(The overflowing radiance , stay strong as is it/ I am/we are)?
溢れる輝きを is the object for an implied but dropped する
So, it's 'to keep the brimming radiance as strong as it is now'
(溢れる does literally mean 'overflowing' but in poem, song, and metaphor it's essentially 'brimming' or 'brimming with').

刻まれた時のいみを知る
I know the meaning of time carved?

If 刻まれた時 means 'time with something carved into it', or if it means 'time that has been carved into the shape of something' (which are kind of the same thing), then it's "I know the meaning of the carved time" (but that's horribly unpoetic and almost nonsensical.)

If 刻まれた時 means 'the time it had something carved into it' or 'the time it was carved into the shape of something' then we have, 'I know the meaning of the time when it was carved'.

However, we probably have something from section II,
http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?p=%E5%88 ... =0&dtype=3

In which case 刻まれた時 is either 'time that has passed' or 'the time that is indelibly remembered'.

Most likely I think it should be read first as 'I know the meaning of time passed (lost)', and then wonder if it means 'that unforgettable time' and occasionally ponder what metaphorical meanings can be derived from images of carving/engraving something into time or what carvings/engravings the speaker might have done (the time we carved our initials in a tree?)

In other words, this last line is wonderfully ambiguous. What poem is this anyway? I rather like it.

Edit: Oops!
I made a major mistake. That ままに runs right into a verb on the next line. That changes everything. forget that implied する.
考え中...
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Re: japanese doubts of my translation

Postby SomeCallMeChris » Mon 03.26.2012 10:54 pm

(Oh, yes, also, http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?p=%E9%BC ... =0&dtype=3 鼓動 is a very limited sort of throbbing word.)


視線 気持ち 鼓動 動く瞬間にほら
君をすきになって行く
あしたに翳す太陽のよう
溢れる輝きを力強くありのままに
刻まれた時のいみを知る

In fact, I think I was thoroughly misled by the line breaks, now that I reflect on it.

"glances feelings beating hearts the moment of movement o look
I'm falling in love with you (tomorrow)
As though the sun was held up to (that tomorrow)
That brimming radiance, with all its strength,
is engraved (in my heart), and the time (that it was engraved,
which is also to say, the instant of movement), I know the meaning of it."

Eeesh. That's really quite impossible to keep the meaning with the lines.
And also I'm totally wiping out the ambiguity discussed about 刻まる and a similar ambiguity that I didn't discuss, but 翳す太陽 could also be that the sun is holding (a moment of time) up to tomorrow.
Anyway, I'm feeling pretty confident that the ほら is the 'hey look' form, and the whole poem is one sentence kinda along those lines.

Hmm... or maybe it's brimming radiance that's being upheld...

Well, in any case, it seems clear to me that there's some very deliberate ambiguity going on here.
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Re: japanese doubts of my translation

Postby jimbreen » Mon 03.26.2012 11:09 pm

SomeCallMeChris wrote:翳す does not mean 'to shade'
http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?p=%E7%BF ... =0&dtype=3


Actually it does. For example, the following dictionaries have:
大辞林: (3) 光などをさえぎるために,手などを額のあたりに持っていっておおう。
新和英中辞典: 目の上に手をかざす shade one's eyes with one's hand
ルミナス和英辞典: 彼女は手を*かざしてこちらを見た She looked toward(s) us 「with her hand over her eyes [shading her eyes with her hand].

It's not the most common meaning. Usually it means to hold something in the air.

Jim
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Re: japanese doubts of my translation

Postby SomeCallMeChris » Mon 03.26.2012 11:55 pm

jimbreen wrote:It's not the most common meaning. Usually it means to hold something in the air.

Jim

Well, from my point of view, 額に手を翳す is an idiomatic expression that means literally to hold one's hand up to one's forehead (which happens to shade one's eyes from the sun); while in English we would say to shade's one eyes from the sun with a hand (which happens to be lifted up to somewhere near the forehead). That doesn't let the verb 翳す to generally take on that meaning - the verb itself does not describe creating shade or casting shadows by virtue of being used in an expression that describes an action that results in 'shade' being created.
I'm sure it can also be used in extended expressions that involve holding up parasols, etc. that would also translate smoothly as 'to shade', but nonetheless... I feel that the literal meaning is not 'to create shadow' but 'to hold up', and that it only becomes 'to shade' in order to not create weirdly unnatural English sentence when writing translations.
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Re: japanese doubts of my translation

Postby tokyotower » Tue 03.27.2012 3:23 am

Thank you a lots for all the efforts :o
I think too , there's a deliberate ambiguity,
but I wonder how japanese interpreted this ambiguity?

I'm sorry, still there's something that don't convince me.
(almost all the lines here are separated ) I just put here those that I was not able to translate.

視線 気持ち 鼓動 動く瞬間にほら
(I noticed this was translated as an unique line? But if there's spaces from each word, like if are separated words, instead of "glances feelings beating hearts the moment of movement o look " can be translated mantains the original line like:
"The glance, feelings, beats Looks I'm moving in a second (in a moment) ??

君をすきになって行く
I 'm falling in love with you

what don't convince me yet, is the meaning of this:

あしたに翳す太陽のよう
溢れる輝きを
力強くありのままに
a japanese translated as ."Like the sun shading tomorrow" (but I don't understand this)
is the sun that shading tomorrow?

the strong as is it (the radiance?) is it strong and the sun illuminate 'shading' the tomorrow?

(do something を ) to 溢れる輝きを
brimming radiance ..... as is it

刻まれた時のいみを知る
I would know the meaning of the engraved time (that have passed away)"


Still it's hard ...
the complete line is:

あしたに翳す太陽 の よう
溢れる輝きを
力強くありのままに
やみを切り裂いて行こう
let's destroy the darkness
with the power as strong as is it
the overflowing radiance
like the sun that shades tomorrow?
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Re: japanese doubts of my translation

Postby jimbreen » Tue 03.27.2012 3:48 am

SomeCallMeChris wrote:
jimbreen wrote:It's not the most common meaning. Usually it means to hold something in the air.


Well, from my point of view, 額に手を翳す is an idiomatic expression that means literally to hold one's hand up to one's forehead (which happens to shade one's eyes from the sun); while in English we would say to shade's one eyes from the sun with a hand (which happens to be lifted up to somewhere near the forehead). That doesn't let the verb 翳す to generally take on that meaning - the verb itself does not describe creating shade or casting shadows by virtue of being used in an expression that describes an action that results in 'shade' being created.


However it's worth looking at the full definitions in some 国語辞典. I only quoted sense 3 from 大辞林. Here is the full set:
(1) 手に持って頭上に高くかかげる。 「団旗を− ・ して進む」
(2) 物の上方におおいかけるように手をさしだす。 「火鉢に手を− ・ す」
(3) 光などをさえぎるために,手などを額のあたりに持っていっておおう。 「小手を− ・ す」

To me that makes it pretty clear that it's an actual sense of the verb and not just an idiomatic expression using the verb.

Another good entry is in the Kodansha "Great Japanese Dictionary". It has the shading sense first:
(1)光を遮るために、頭やひたいの前にさしかける。〈用例〉小手を〜・して遠くを見る。
(2)ものの上にさしかける。〈用例〉火鉢に手を〜。
(3)手に持ったものを頭の上に高く掲げる。〈用例〉刀を〜。
(4)高く掲げて光に当てるようにする。hold up...over 〈用例〉明かりに〜・して手紙を読む。

I'm sure it can also be used in extended expressions that involve holding up parasols, etc. that would also translate smoothly as 'to shade', but nonetheless... I feel that the literal meaning is not 'to create shadow' but 'to hold up', and that it only becomes 'to shade' in order to not create weirdly unnatural English sentence when writing translations.


Those dictionaries don't mention creating a shadow, but describe it in terms of intercepting the light (which of course will make a shadow.) I think it's perfectly valid to use the word "shade" when explaining in English what the verb means, which of course is what every JE I have looked at does. (My OED has the first sense of the verb "to shade" as "to screen from light or heat.) That's why in sense 3 of the JMdict definition we have "to shade one's eyes, face, etc." To recast it avoiding the word shade would be clumsy and quite unnecessary.

Cheers

Jim
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Re: japanese doubts of my translation

Postby NileCat » Tue 03.27.2012 6:36 am

Let me tell you the impression I had on this.
I'm not exactly sure about the nuance of the English word “to shade”,
But, if the original sentence uses hiragana instead of the kanji, I would read it as “Like the sun shines on tomorrow” regardless whether it's correct or not, because the context seems to require me to do so. :) In that sense, the nuance is much closer to something like "raise the flag"
However, it is written in kanji. So I assume the writer kind of wanted to give the feeling of some “shadow” there, not only the bright side, to his readers. (Full of lights, which means there exists some shadow) In that sense, “to shade” seems fit here to me.
You know? You’d be expected to use some “artistic interpretation” when it comes to “translate” this kind of writing, I guess.
Just for your information, if you want to really really strictly follow so-called “school grammar”, I’d say this sentence would sound…a little bit strange. Some might call it “a misuse of the word kazasu” because there seems a confusion of intransitive and transitive. But I’d call it “artistic license”.
Just my two cents. :wink:
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Re: japanese doubts of my translation

Postby tokyotower » Tue 03.27.2012 7:07 am

Thanks for all the informations... I'm agree too about the 'artistic nuance'...

Sorry if english is not my language, who can adjust (correct) my second translation?

あしたに翳す太陽 の よう
溢れる輝きを
力強くありのままに
やみを切り裂いて行こう
let's destroy the darkness
with the power as strong as is it
the overflowing radiance
like the sun that shades tomorrow?

Thanks for the help again !
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Re: japanese doubts of my translation

Postby SomeCallMeChris » Tue 03.27.2012 10:16 am

視線 気持ち 鼓動 動く瞬間にほら
"The glance, feelings, beats Looks I'm moving in a second (in a moment) ??

I don't think you can say '*I* am moving in a moment", because 動く瞬間 is not future tense, it's a noun phrase that describes the moment movement occurs, and also because there's no 'I' here. It's probably 'I', maybe 'we', and still has a chance to be 'you'. This line is more 'by itself' because 'ほら' is an exclamation, and should begin a sentence. But 動く瞬間に looks like it's modifying ほら, so really, this line connects to the next, as do they all. You could say, 'The moment I move' if you're certain of your interpretation of the work as a whole and decide 'I' works here, and don't mind losing the ambiguity of who is what is moving.

君をすきになって行く
modifies あした, so tomorrow is when I fall in love with you,
あしたに翳す太陽のよう
翳す modifies 太陽のよう which modifies 溢れる輝き
溢れる輝きを
輝き is an object of 刻まれた
力強くありのままに
力…に modifies 刻まれた
刻まれた時のいみを知る
So the whole poem (except for the first line) up to the last line is one descriptive clause that
modifies 刻まれた時, and the speaker knows what that 時 means.
(and 刻まれた時 is still as ambiguous as ever.)

I would know the meaning of the engraved time (that have passed away)"

You'll have to come up with your own interpretation. That's the nature of poetry. Or you could ask the author, but most poets don't like to explain their ambiguous phrases, they made them ambiguous for a reason.
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Re: japanese doubts of my translation

Postby tokyotower » Tue 03.27.2012 11:06 am

Sorry, I think I have to study in my own language..
all these words 'modify' (I still don't have clear what mean 'to modify' a verb.)

I think in this case, I need the direct translation...
I tried to understand, but I can't.

If someone can help me, because I wish to understand the translation of this poem, since it's so difficult, now I 'm curious about the correct translation.

あしたに翳す太陽 の よう
溢れる輝きを
力強くありのままに
やみを切り裂いて行こう
Last edited by tokyotower on Tue 03.27.2012 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: japanese doubts of my translation

Postby NileCat » Tue 03.27.2012 12:53 pm

Are you doing a translation competition or something somewhere? :)

Ok. I’ll tell you why we can’t give you a “proper” translation which may satisfy you.
Sorry but bluntly speaking, this “poem” is virtually impossible to translate logically, because it is illogical. If you are dying to know the “true” meaning, ask the author (Satsuki) on Twitter.
https://twitter.com/#!/Satsuki_Rociel

And, for people who want to know the context, this is the source.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz9WAYur ... re=related
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Re: japanese doubts of my translation

Postby SomeCallMeChris » Tue 03.27.2012 1:06 pm

tokyotower wrote:Sorry, I think I have to study in my own language..
all these words 'modify' (I still don't have clear what mean 'to modify' a verb.)

'Modify' just means 'to affect the meaning' in this sense. Adjectives modify nouns, adverbs modify verbs, and so on. When you have a phrase like '失った財布' we can say 失う modifies 財布 just like in 赤い車, 赤い modifies 車. (In the straightforward usage, you have 財布を失った, and then we say 財布 is an object of 失った). 'Modify' is a very broad word, anyway.

And, for people who want to know the context, this is the source.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz9WAYur ... re=related

Ohhh, it's not a poem at all, then... and it wasn't even the complete lyrics.

Well, while I'm still sure that there's a lot of deliberate ambiguity maybe some of that ambiguity is cleared up in the context if I look at the whole lyrics. I think I'll add the song to my youtube list anyway and maybe get back to it later, but then, I have a lot of lyrics I listen to that I haven't really read through carefully yet.
Thank you for the link, Nilecat.
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