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含意が読み取れない

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含意が読み取れない

Postby Ongakuka » Mon 04.09.2012 7:48 pm

「顕密体制」ではXX世紀には密教による諸宗教の統合、XX世紀には王法仏教相依論に基づく国家権力と宗教との相互依存関係が強調され、思想史的側面が強いといえよう


顕密体制 is a theory by Kuroda, which the author of this quote appears to be summarizing.

My question is, could the underlined portion be considered a criticism of the theory? Does it mean it is 'idealistic?' This text is beyond my level of Japanese as it is, and I don't imagine this is an easy question to answer, but any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Re: 含意が読み取れない

Postby NileCat » Tue 04.10.2012 3:53 am

Let’s analyze this phrase.
〜は、〜的側面が強いと言えよう

側面 means “dimension”, “aspect”, or “side”, right?
For instance, 経済的側面 means “economic dimension”. Walt Disney’s works were much greater than Apple Computer’s success if you see its economic dimension in the 20th century, in a sense.

The nuance of 〜と言えよう can vary depending on the context, however, it basically means “I could say that 〜”, “you can assume it as 〜”, or “it would be true to conclude that 〜”, ok?

〜的側面が強い is commonly used to point out some feature (a bit) different from what it usually looks or is recognized among people. It can present an opinion from another viewpoint.

Now, take a look at the original sentence.
"思想史的側面が強いといえよう"
思想史 is “history of ideas”, the meaning of which is very similar to “history of philosophy”.

The theory ”顕密体制” was originally written with the intention of defining the establishment of some Buddhism groups, however, this author points out that the book(theory) had a significant feature as a history of thought (in the whole history of Japanese religion, perhaps)

In short, the author doesn’t mean to “criticize” it. (At least this short paragraph doesn't look so.) This sentence sounds to me like; “This book is also valuable as a chronology of Japanese religious philosophy” or, “The intention of this book seems to be more being a chronicle of ideas rather than being a dissertation of some specific Buddhism groups.

Makes sense? :)
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Re: 含意が読み取れない

Postby Ongakuka » Tue 04.10.2012 9:22 am

Thank you so much Nilecatさん :D now it is all very clear to me. I'm really struggling with this text ><
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Re: 含意が読み取れない

Postby Hektor6766 » Tue 04.10.2012 10:48 am

The definitions provided for 側面 are the problems here. I could find no dictionary (so far) that defines this as dimension; always side, lateral, sideline. It forces the interpretation that the sentence writes off the theory as a sidetrack in the history of philosophy, not crediting its extent of importance. When I cross-referenced "dimension", I got 寸法 or 次元.
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Re: 含意が読み取れない

Postby NileCat » Tue 04.10.2012 11:01 am

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Re: 含意が読み取れない

Postby Hektor6766 » Tue 04.10.2012 11:24 am

NileCat wrote:See the definition no.3. :)
http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?enc=UTF- ... na&stype=0

It's more comprehensive than any of the English translation dictionaries I've tried.
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Re: 含意が読み取れない

Postby NileCat » Tue 04.10.2012 11:42 am

Ongakuka wrote:Thank you so much Nilecatさん :D now it is all very clear to me. I'm really struggling with this text ><

Ongakukaさん, may I become kind of anal and point out a typo? :-P
It should be 王法仏相依論, I guess.
王法 means Rules of King. (chthonic rules and laws)
仏法 means Rules of Buddha. (religious teachings and precepts)
The former is a technical term we don’t use in ordinary life whereas the latter is a relatively common word.
The word 相依論 would sound difficult to anyone, however, you can see it as an abbreviation of “互に存する、という「」”. Which means, 王法仏法相依論 is a theory which claims that Religion and Politics (should) have mutual interdependence.

The author points out two different things;
a) (When Kuroda disserts XX century,) Kuroda emphasizes that a synthesis of various Buddhism was made by (the movement/existence of) esoteric Buddhism.
b) (When Kuroda disserts XX century,) Kuroda emphasizes that the mutual interdependence of the Government power and the religion, which was based on the theory of 王法仏法相依論, was recognizable.
Then the author concludes that Kuroda’s study has a (strong) feature as a chronology of ideas. (whereas it is usually considered as “a study of a form of society in the relationship with Buddhism ”)

The sentence structure is like this;
「顕密体制」では、 AとBが強調され (ているということから見ても)、(この本/theoryは)思想史的側面が強い(ということが言えるだろう)。

Hope this helps.
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Re: 含意が読み取れない

Postby Ongakuka » Tue 04.10.2012 11:52 am

It's more comprehensive than any of the English translation dictionaries I've tried.


English translation dictionaries should always be a last resort :D and thanks for your input Hektor-san :)

Nilecat-san >> the typo was made by me (of course) thanks for pointing that out. Your analysis makes everything much clearer for me, though I don't understand how it could be so ridiculously complicated in the first place.

All in all, it seems that the most important thing to be said so far is that Uejima (the author of this text) is, if anything, complimentary of Kuroda's efforts.
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Re: 含意が読み取れない

Postby NileCat » Tue 04.10.2012 12:09 pm

Ongakuka wrote:All in all, it seems that the most important thing to be said so far is that Uejima (the author of this text) is, if anything, complimentary of Kuroda's efforts.


Well, that’s kind of complicated, I’m afraid, because it CAN be read as a “courteous disdain" depending on the context. :shock:
Basically, the author only says “the value of his work is a bit different from what it is widely believed”.
I wouldn’t see it as a compliment. I wouldn’t see it as a criticism. He just writes his opinion in an objective manner. :wink:
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Re: 含意が読み取れない

Postby Ongakuka » Tue 04.10.2012 12:14 pm

Basically, the author only says “the value of his work is a bit different from what it is widely believed”.
I wouldn’t see it as a compliment. I wouldn’t see it as a criticism. He just writes his opinion in an objective manner.


I see, thank you :) I guess I keep looking for stuff that isn't there ><
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Re: 含意が読み取れない

Postby NileCat » Tue 04.10.2012 12:24 pm

Let me give you an example.

彼女は女性としてより、優秀な社長としての側面が強い。
This sentence does not deny the person-as-a-lady. However;
Some might take it as a compliment (She’s a good president!)
Some might take it as a scorn. (She’s not attractive as a woman!)

This is the work of the phrase “~的側面が強い”.
:)
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Re: 含意が読み取れない

Postby Ongakuka » Tue 04.10.2012 12:26 pm

This appears to be the next most significant part, where Uejima points out the part of Kuroda's theory that is unclear:

氏(黒田)寺院内部の構造を論じた「寺社努勢力論」では、興福寺などの顕教寺院の分析もされているが、「顕密体制」の歴史的展開としては顕教は密教への対応として叙述されている。そして、これが「顕密体制論」では古代の国家仏教とのつながりが明確にならない原因になっている。

The middle part is the 明確にならない原因, but I don't understand it very well :?
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Re: 含意が読み取れない

Postby Ongakuka » Tue 04.10.2012 12:33 pm

This is the work of the phrase “~的側面が強い”.


これで明らかになりました ・・と言いつつありますが(笑)いや納得できたと思います。いいことか悪いことかははっきり言わず、客観的な言い方ですね

本当にありがとうございます♪
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Re: 含意が読み取れない

Postby NileCat » Tue 04.10.2012 12:54 pm

Ongakuka wrote:This appears to be the next most significant part, where Uejima points out the part of Kuroda's theory that is unclear:

氏(黒田)寺院内部の構造を論じた「寺社努勢力論」では、興福寺などの顕教寺院の分析もされているが、「顕密体制」の歴史的展開としては顕教は密教への対応として叙述されている。そして、これが「顕密体制論」では古代の国家仏教とのつながりが明確にならない原因になっている。

The middle part is the 明確にならない原因, but I don't understand it very well :?


In the book “寺社勢力論”, he says that the “straightforward stream of Buddhism” was established/organized/addressed to handle/react/correspond to the “esoteric Buddism”.
And, ↑this fact prevents the theory from clarifying the relationship of ancient government-and-religion.


This is the rough meaning of the paragraph.
But, sorry, it doesn’t make sense to me. In the second sentence, the subject is unclear. If you post the “whole” book for me, I’d see. 8)
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Re: 含意が読み取れない

Postby Ongakuka » Tue 04.10.2012 1:17 pm

My head is spinning! :D but that helps a great deal. I don't think this book is online and I certainly don't want to copy out the entire thing :shock: in any case, your translation helps me enough for what I need to do. The structure and hard words throw me off... Thank you so much :)
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