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What is the difference between these two sentences

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What is the difference between these two sentences

Postby Shiroisan » Wed 05.09.2012 9:12 pm

みずうみの近くにべっそうを買うことにしようか
みずうみの近くにあるべっそうをを買うことにしようか

I had been taught how to say the second way, but I just read that first way and wondering how it works... is ある simply implied or .... I'm not sure?
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Re: What is the difference between these two sentences

Postby yangmuye » Thu 05.10.2012 2:13 am

教科書にはあまり教えられない、多少変格的だがよくされている言い方のようです。
『存在』の場所、或いは、『出現』の場所と受けてよいかな、と思いますが、よく分かりません。

湖の近くに別荘を買う → 湖の近くに別荘を持っている
近くに別荘を建てる → 近くに別荘が建てられる
顔に笑顔が見える
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Re: What is the difference between these two sentences

Postby NileCat » Thu 05.10.2012 8:22 am

The simplest answer to the question would be:
“湖の近くにある” modifies 別荘.
“湖の近くに” modifies (別荘を)買う.

That’s the difference.
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Re: What is the difference between these two sentences

Postby Shiroisan » Thu 05.10.2012 5:28 pm

NileCat wrote:The simplest answer to the question would be:
“湖の近くにある” modifies 別荘.
“湖の近くに” modifies (別荘を)買う.

That’s the difference.

I see, but..

If it truly is just a verb location modifier for 買う, then why do we say 店本を買います, and not 店本を買います。

Or was the former one (and my understanding) wrong to begin with?
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Re: What is the difference between these two sentences

Postby NileCat » Thu 05.10.2012 9:14 pm

That's because the shop is not the target of your action.
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/gr ... bparticles
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Re: What is the difference between these two sentences

Postby Shiroisan » Thu 05.10.2012 10:07 pm

日本に行く To go to Japan.
Understood. Japan is the target, and all targets of movement are marked with に。

みずうみの近くにあるべっそうを買う To buy a lakeside cabin; To buy a cabin that's by the lake.
Understood. In these cases, "lakeside" and "that's by the lake" are noun modifiers.

みずうみでべっそうを買う To buy a cabin at the lake.
In this case, ”at the lake” is a location of where the verb will take place.

Now, the last two examples covered every single way (at least in English) that I can think of to describe the activity of "to buy a cabin that's by the lake", and both examples had Japanese equivalents (at least from my understanding).

Can you please describe to me how the supposed third way of using に differs? Is there an English equivalent? Instead of a rule that I'm not knowing, this problem lies rather in the fact that there's a rule that I'm not understanding.

だれかたすけてくれてください :pray:
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Re: What is the difference between these two sentences

Postby NileCat » Thu 05.10.2012 11:26 pm

東京で家を買う
東京に家を買う

で marks the location of your action.
に marks the location of the target of your action.
(action = to buy)

You take an action in Tokyo.
You take an action which targets Tokyo (as its location).

Nuance-wise, the former means that you sign the contract in Tokyo, whereas the latter CAN mean that you sign the contract even in New York.
e.g) NYで東京に家を買った

Makes sense?
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Re: What is the difference between these two sentences

Postby Shiroisan » Fri 05.11.2012 12:24 am

NileCat wrote:東京で家を買う
東京に家を買う

で marks the location of your action.
に marks the location of the target of your action.
(action = to buy)

You take an action in Tokyo.
You take an action which targets Tokyo (as its location).

Nuance-wise, the former means that you sign the contract in Tokyo, whereas the latter CAN mean that you sign the contract even in New York.
e.g) NYで東京に家を買った

Makes sense?


Ahh I think I get it now. I suppose there really is no English equivalent, as saying that you "bought a house in tokyo" could ambiguously mean either signing the contract or the house itself. The latter would be more commonplace of course, but still.

Thank you very much.
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