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double consonants

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double consonants

Postby sakku » Wed 02.20.2013 5:36 pm

Hello,
I'm studying Sokuon. Is this information correct? Only k row, s row, t row, pa and pi can be doubled?
Although I don't know any words where small tsu precedes normal tsu. Is there an example?
What about the word onna (woman). Why can't we write it as ?
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Re: double consonants

Postby Ongakuka » Wed 02.20.2013 6:13 pm

I think the best way to learn what you can and can't do with sokuon is to learn a lot of Japanese, rather than studying them in their own right (unless you are doing some kind of special research.)

おんな is written this way because it is not the same as おっな - which does not exist - but if it did it would be pronounced differently. When I tried to say it I thought it sounded like someone trying to say おんな with a bad cold. Anyway, I recommend lots of reading and listening!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokuon
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Re: double consonants

Postby jimbreen » Wed 02.20.2013 8:02 pm

sakku wrote:What about the word onna (woman). Why can't we write it as ?


You are coming to it from romaji. I recommend you get away from romaji as quickly as possible. There are all sorts of problems with relying on romaji when you are learning Japanese, and thinking that おんな and おっな might be equivalent is but one of them.

There's a trap in thinking of っ as doubling a consonant; it's often better to think of it as a short pause.

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Re: double consonants

Postby SomeCallMeChris » Thu 02.21.2013 2:18 am

A quick search of っつを含める and I found
うわっつら (appearance, surface)
http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?enc=UTF- ... x=00407900

Anyways, I agree with what Jim said. I was taught once that a little つ indicates a glottal stop - that is a brief closing of the throat to interrupt the flow of breath. I've come to appreciate how complex and varied pronunciation is and suspect that's not entirely correct, but it's a better approximation than thinking of it as a double consonant. (There's no consistency to pronouncing double consonants in English anyway, not that I've noticed.)

You should consider that it's -possible- to put a small つ anywhere at all. There may be positions where it never occurs in Japanese words but it will surely show up (in the katakana version at least) in every position in loan words and foreign names.

Little つ is also constantly used in dialogue in places that are not 'correct' in order to indicate the way a character is pronouncing something with extra force in a particular place (right after the little つ). Also lots of little つ to indicate stammering.
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Re: double consonants

Postby aru303 » Thu 02.21.2013 7:02 am

From what I remember what Lordoftheflies told about it.

If we see it as double consonant, ん is the only single consonant in hiragana so you use it to double n (おんな、 みんな、 こんにちは)

as others don't have their single consonants you use っ ちょっと、 まって etc.

sorry if my formulation was difficult to understand.
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Re: double consonants

Postby sakku » Thu 02.21.2013 7:15 am

all the answers are useful, thank you very much..
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Re: double consonants

Postby furrykef » Thu 02.21.2013 1:36 pm

っ isn't a glottal stop before "s". ;)

I'm studying Sokuon. Is this information correct? Only k row, s row, t row, pa and pi can be doubled?

Why do you think you can't have "ppu", "ppe", and "ppo"? All of those are common. Seppuku, Sapporo... well, I can't think of any words with "ppe" off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are some (especially in loanwords).

Aside from that, yes, those are the only consonants that can normally be doubled with っ.
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