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double consonants
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double consonants
Hello,
I'm studying Sokuon. Is this information correct? Only k row, s row, t row, pa and pi can be doubled?
Although I don't know any words where small tsu precedes normal tsu. Is there an example?
What about the word onna (woman). Why can't we write it as おっな?
I'm studying Sokuon. Is this information correct? Only k row, s row, t row, pa and pi can be doubled?
Although I don't know any words where small tsu precedes normal tsu. Is there an example?
What about the word onna (woman). Why can't we write it as おっな?
- sakku
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Tue 02.19.2013 8:50 am
- Native language: Turkish
Re: double consonants
I think the best way to learn what you can and can't do with sokuon is to learn a lot of Japanese, rather than studying them in their own right (unless you are doing some kind of special research.)
おんな is written this way because it is not the same as おっな - which does not exist - but if it did it would be pronounced differently. When I tried to say it I thought it sounded like someone trying to say おんな with a bad cold. Anyway, I recommend lots of reading and listening!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokuon
おんな is written this way because it is not the same as おっな - which does not exist - but if it did it would be pronounced differently. When I tried to say it I thought it sounded like someone trying to say おんな with a bad cold. Anyway, I recommend lots of reading and listening!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokuon
なぜなら、おまえは・・・・・・人形だ
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Ongakuka - Posts: 905
- Joined: Mon 09.26.2005 1:07 pm
Re: double consonants
sakku wrote:What about the word onna (woman). Why can't we write it as おっな?
You are coming to it from romaji. I recommend you get away from romaji as quickly as possible. There are all sorts of problems with relying on romaji when you are learning Japanese, and thinking that おんな and おっな might be equivalent is but one of them.
There's a trap in thinking of っ as doubling a consonant; it's often better to think of it as a short pause.
Jim
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jimbreen - Posts: 153
- Joined: Tue 06.27.2006 2:09 am
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: double consonants
A quick search of っつを含める and I found
うわっつら (appearance, surface)
http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?enc=UTF- ... x=00407900
Anyways, I agree with what Jim said. I was taught once that a little つ indicates a glottal stop - that is a brief closing of the throat to interrupt the flow of breath. I've come to appreciate how complex and varied pronunciation is and suspect that's not entirely correct, but it's a better approximation than thinking of it as a double consonant. (There's no consistency to pronouncing double consonants in English anyway, not that I've noticed.)
You should consider that it's -possible- to put a small つ anywhere at all. There may be positions where it never occurs in Japanese words but it will surely show up (in the katakana version at least) in every position in loan words and foreign names.
Little つ is also constantly used in dialogue in places that are not 'correct' in order to indicate the way a character is pronouncing something with extra force in a particular place (right after the little つ). Also lots of little つ to indicate stammering.
うわっつら (appearance, surface)
http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?enc=UTF- ... x=00407900
Anyways, I agree with what Jim said. I was taught once that a little つ indicates a glottal stop - that is a brief closing of the throat to interrupt the flow of breath. I've come to appreciate how complex and varied pronunciation is and suspect that's not entirely correct, but it's a better approximation than thinking of it as a double consonant. (There's no consistency to pronouncing double consonants in English anyway, not that I've noticed.)
You should consider that it's -possible- to put a small つ anywhere at all. There may be positions where it never occurs in Japanese words but it will surely show up (in the katakana version at least) in every position in loan words and foreign names.
Little つ is also constantly used in dialogue in places that are not 'correct' in order to indicate the way a character is pronouncing something with extra force in a particular place (right after the little つ). Also lots of little つ to indicate stammering.
- SomeCallMeChris
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Tue 08.09.2011 12:54 pm
- Native language: English
Re: double consonants
From what I remember what Lordoftheflies told about it.
If we see it as double consonant, ん is the only single consonant in hiragana so you use it to double n (おんな、 みんな、 こんにちは)
as others don't have their single consonants you use っ ちょっと、 まって etc.
sorry if my formulation was difficult to understand.
If we see it as double consonant, ん is the only single consonant in hiragana so you use it to double n (おんな、 みんな、 こんにちは)
as others don't have their single consonants you use っ ちょっと、 まって etc.
sorry if my formulation was difficult to understand.
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aru303 - Posts: 19
- Joined: Mon 09.05.2011 5:34 am
- Location: Lithuania
- Native language: Lithuanian, Russian
Re: double consonants
all the answers are useful, thank you very much..
- sakku
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Tue 02.19.2013 8:50 am
- Native language: Turkish
Re: double consonants
っ isn't a glottal stop before "s". 
Why do you think you can't have "ppu", "ppe", and "ppo"? All of those are common. Seppuku, Sapporo... well, I can't think of any words with "ppe" off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are some (especially in loanwords).
Aside from that, yes, those are the only consonants that can normally be doubled with っ.

I'm studying Sokuon. Is this information correct? Only k row, s row, t row, pa and pi can be doubled?
Why do you think you can't have "ppu", "ppe", and "ppo"? All of those are common. Seppuku, Sapporo... well, I can't think of any words with "ppe" off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are some (especially in loanwords).
Aside from that, yes, those are the only consonants that can normally be doubled with っ.
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Also see my lang-8 journal, where you can help me practice Japanese (and Spanish, and Italian!)
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furrykef - Posts: 1556
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