永遠の初心者 vs 永遠初心者

Have a Question about some Grammar point? Share it with the world!
Post Reply
User avatar
phreadom
Site Admin
Posts: 1762
Joined: Sun 01.29.2006 8:43 pm
Native language: U.S. English (米語)
Gender: Male
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

永遠の初心者 vs 永遠初心者

Post by phreadom » Mon 04.22.2013 7:22 pm

We were discussing this in the chat, and LordOfTheFlies was saying that it sounds much better with the の in there, but it seems to me that it makes more sense with 永遠 acting as an adjective? :think:

I don't understand how the の sounds more natural and makes more sense. :sweatdrop:

Can anyone give a good explanation for what's happening here? :colonthree:
猿も木から落ちる

LordOfTheFlies
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun 05.07.2006 9:43 am
Native language: Swedish

Re: 永遠の初心者 vs 永遠初心者

Post by LordOfTheFlies » Mon 04.22.2013 7:24 pm

phreadom wrote:We were discussing this in the chat, and LordOfTheFlies was saying that it sounds much better with the の in there, but it seems to me that it makes more sense with 永遠 acting as an adjective? :think:
It is acting as an adjective with the の, that's the reason it's there. Particles can sometimes be ommitted in compound words, but this isn't one of those cases. It just sounds awkward an unnatural without the の in my opinion.

User avatar
Ranja
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed 11.05.2008 5:40 am
Native language: Japanese

Re: 永遠の初心者 vs 永遠初心者

Post by Ranja » Mon 04.22.2013 9:52 pm

LordOfTheFliesさんに一票。I agree with LordOfTheFlies. :)

User avatar
Shiroisan
Posts: 354
Joined: Sun 03.06.2011 2:52 am
Native language: Eigo

Re: 永遠の初心者 vs 永遠初心者

Post by Shiroisan » Mon 04.22.2013 10:09 pm

LordOfTheFlies wrote:
phreadom wrote:We were discussing this in the chat, and LordOfTheFlies was saying that it sounds much better with the の in there, but it seems to me that it makes more sense with 永遠 acting as an adjective? :think:
It is acting as an adjective with the の, that's the reason it's there. Particles can sometimes be ommitted in compound words, but this isn't one of those cases. It just sounds awkward an unnatural without the の in my opinion.
Are such compound words where omitting the の is natural pre-established or is it possible to create your own?

SomeCallMeChris
Posts: 258
Joined: Tue 08.09.2011 12:54 pm
Native language: English

Re: 永遠の初心者 vs 永遠初心者

Post by SomeCallMeChris » Mon 04.22.2013 10:59 pm

Shiroisan wrote: Are such compound words where omitting the の is natural pre-established or is it possible to create your own?
It's probably best for a foreign speaker to simply treat them as pre-established, but if you pay close attention to usage you can identify words which are often and freely used as prefixes or suffixes or both and figure out at least some of what are acceptable compounds to create on the fly.

Seems like a waste of effort to actively study such a thing though, at least with word creation in mind. I pay attention to such things so that I can decompose long compounds more quickly in my head, and if I need to look up part of it, look up the right part instead of guessing at a bunch of ways to divide the string of kanji up.

User avatar
phreadom
Site Admin
Posts: 1762
Joined: Sun 01.29.2006 8:43 pm
Native language: U.S. English (米語)
Gender: Male
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: 永遠の初心者 vs 永遠初心者

Post by phreadom » Mon 04.22.2013 11:46 pm

http://japanese.stackexchange.com/quest ... /2771#2771

It seems like that link is summing up my particular issue fairly well... it even uses 永遠の~ in one of its examples. :mrgreen:

Basically it's just another attribute (of many) of the の particle that I wasn't familiar with.

Thanks for the replies everyone! :bow:
猿も木から落ちる

Post Reply