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Help with changing objects into topics. "を" to "は"

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Help with changing objects into topics. "を" to "は"

Postby FlameHaze » Fri 06.28.2013 4:29 am

Can anyone explain this to me? When changing the object in this sentence "私は日曜日までにこの本を返さなければなりません" to become the topic, we get "この本は日曜日までに返さなければなりません".

Literally, the sentence "この本は日曜日までに返さなければなりません" means "As for this book, I must return it by Sunday". However, the Japanese words for I or "私" isn't mentioned in the sentence. I know it's okay, I remember reading something about it being "hidden", but if I were to slot the word "I" in, can I write it as "この本は私が日曜日までに返さなければなりません"? Or should I just write it as "この本は私、日曜日までに返さなければなりません"?

Feel free to correct me. If you can, link me to a page which explains this in detail. I do get a bit confused with the sentences like above.

Hope you get what I'm trying to say. When changing the topic of the sentences, pronouns such as "I" "you" "we" tend to be left out, I'm asking how to slot them in, although not necessary. Thanks
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Re: Help with changing objects into topics. "を" to "は"

Postby Shiroisan » Fri 06.28.2013 4:50 am

hate to beat the dead horse but it depends on context. It would be a rare context indeed for that sentence to need 私 in it.

Can I blow your mind and tell you that it's possible to have two or more は particles in one sentence? Sure nuances change with that but...

For example, could you please tell me the reason/ context in which you'd feel compelled to say "I" even though you're talking about "this" book? I have examples but I want to see yours.
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Re: Help with changing objects into topics. "を" to "は"

Postby FlameHaze » Fri 06.28.2013 5:07 am

Shiroisan wrote:hate to beat the dead horse but it depends on context. It would be a rare context indeed for that sentence to need 私 in it.

Can I blow your mind and tell you that it's possible to have two or more は particles in one sentence? Sure nuances change with that but...

For example, could you please tell me the reason/ context in which you'd feel compelled to say "I" even though you're talking about "this" book? I have examples but I want to see yours.


I did come across sentences with two" は"s, but that was when と言いました, と思いました were in the sentences.

There's no reason for me wanting to say "I", in fact, I was just reading up this particular chapter in Minna no Nihongo when this question popped up and my inquisitiveness made me want to get an answer to it. -.-
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Re: Help with changing objects into topics. "を" to "は"

Postby Shiroisan » Fri 06.28.2013 5:16 am

FlameHaze wrote:
Shiroisan wrote:hate to beat the dead horse but it depends on context. It would be a rare context indeed for that sentence to need 私 in it.

Can I blow your mind and tell you that it's possible to have two or more は particles in one sentence? Sure nuances change with that but...

For example, could you please tell me the reason/ context in which you'd feel compelled to say "I" even though you're talking about "this" book? I have examples but I want to see yours.


I did come across sentences with two" は"s, but that was when と言いました, と思いました were in the sentences.

There's no reason for me wanting to say "I", in fact, I was just reading up this particular chapter in Minna no Nihongo when this question popped up and my inquisitiveness made me want to get an answer to it. -.-


Well you need a reason to say it before we can tell you which sounds right :sweatdrop:

As for the と言う ・ と思う sentences you mentioned, that's true, but I meant that even outside of quotation sentences you can use two within one statement itself.
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Re: Help with changing objects into topics. "を" to "は"

Postby FlameHaze » Fri 06.28.2013 5:23 am

Shiroisan wrote:
FlameHaze wrote:
Shiroisan wrote:hate to beat the dead horse but it depends on context. It would be a rare context indeed for that sentence to need 私 in it.

Can I blow your mind and tell you that it's possible to have two or more は particles in one sentence? Sure nuances change with that but...

For example, could you please tell me the reason/ context in which you'd feel compelled to say "I" even though you're talking about "this" book? I have examples but I want to see yours.


I did come across sentences with two" は"s, but that was when と言いました, と思いました were in the sentences.

There's no reason for me wanting to say "I", in fact, I was just reading up this particular chapter in Minna no Nihongo when this question popped up and my inquisitiveness made me want to get an answer to it. -.-


Well you need a reason to say it before we can tell you which sounds right :sweatdrop:

As for the と言う ・ と思う sentences you mentioned, that's true, but I meant that even outside of quotation sentences you can use two within one statement itself.


Afraid I can't think of any context, perhaps I should just let this drop. :sweatdrop:

Alright, go ahead, blow my mind if you like.
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Re: Help with changing objects into topics. "を" to "は"

Postby Kodama_30 » Fri 06.28.2013 11:54 am

Seeing as this thread has screeched a bit to a halt and I'm currently re-reading a chapter on this very topic, I think I'll contribute a nice example for you ^_^


私の大学に男の学生いません。


Have a go at this sentence, and see what you can make of it.
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Re: Help with changing objects into topics. "を" to "は"

Postby FlameHaze » Sat 06.29.2013 1:49 am

Kodama_30 wrote:Seeing as this thread has screeched a bit to a halt and I'm currently re-reading a chapter on this very topic, I think I'll contribute a nice example for you ^_^


私の大学に男の学生いません。


Have a go at this sentence, and see what you can make of it.


There's no male students in my school? And the first "wa" is to stress that it's my school?
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Re: Help with changing objects into topics. "を" to "は"

Postby FlameHaze » Sat 06.29.2013 2:03 am

Let's say we have this context where we're dividing cleaning jobs among students. Now I want to say, As for this job, Mary will do it. How am I going say it?

Should I say, "この仕事は、メアリさんがする" or "この仕事は、メアリさんはする"?

I'm guessing it's the first one right?
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Re: Help with changing objects into topics. "を" to "は"

Postby Ongakuka » Sat 06.29.2013 2:50 am

I'm guessing it's the first one right?


Yes. But I'd say Xの仕事はメアリーさんにまかせる
なぜなら、おまえは・・・・・・人形だ
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Re: Help with changing objects into topics. "を" to "は"

Postby FlameHaze » Sun 06.30.2013 7:03 am

How about this? Let's say we're asking "who wants this present"

このプレゼントはだれが欲しいですか。
だれがこのプレゼントが欲しいですか。

Are both of these correct? I got a bit confused since from what I learnt in Minna no Nihongo, when we want something, we use "x"が欲しいです。I'm not sure whether I can use "だれが欲しい" because based on what I've learnt, It sounds like "who do you want" rather than "who wants this".

P.S Ignoring what I've learnt and trying to speak naturally, I think it's correct. :D Someone clarify for me please. Thanks.
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Re: Help with changing objects into topics. "を" to "は"

Postby Ranja » Sun 06.30.2013 10:03 am

What you've learnt is right.
Because 欲しい is an adjective, だれが欲しい usually means "who do you want?".
e.g. 「チームにだれが欲しい?」

If you want to use a verb instead of an adjective, you can say
だれがこのプレゼントをほっしていますか。(very formal)
or
だれがこのプレゼントをほしがっていますか。

I think
このプレゼントが欲しいのはだれですか。
is the most natural.

However, although both
このプレゼントは、だれが欲しいですか。
and
だれがこのプレゼント欲しいですか。
sound a bit weird, they ARE acceptable in daily conversation.


Literally, the sentence "この本は日曜日までに返さなければなりません" means "As for this book, I must return it by Sunday". However, the Japanese words for I or "私" isn't mentioned in the sentence. I know it's okay, I remember reading something about it being "hidden", but if I were to slot the word "I" in, can I write it as "この本は私が日曜日までに返さなければなりません"? Or should I just write it as "この本は私、日曜日までに返さなければなりません"?


"この本は私が日曜日までに返さなければなりません" is the right answer.
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Re: Help with changing objects into topics. "を" to "は"

Postby FlameHaze » Sun 06.30.2013 12:15 pm

Ranja wrote:
"この本は私が日曜日までに返さなければなりません" is the right answer.


Thank you very much!
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Re: Help with changing objects into topics. "を" to "は"

Postby FlameHaze » Mon 07.01.2013 6:21 am

Ranja wrote:What you've learnt is right.
Because 欲しい is an adjective, だれが欲しい usually means "who do you want?".
e.g. 「チームにだれが欲しい?」

I think
このプレゼントが欲しいのはだれですか。
is the most natural.


I haven't learnt this type of sentences before, but can we say "このプレゼントをほしがっているのはだれですか。"? Would it sound weird?
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Re: Help with changing objects into topics. "を" to "は"

Postby Ranja » Mon 07.01.2013 7:26 am

I haven't learnt this type of sentences before, but can we say "このプレゼントをほしがっているのはだれですか。"? Would it sound weird?


Good. It is completely natural.

BTW, to say, for example, "Who eats this?" in Japanese, there would be two patterns:
1. Dare ga sore o taberu? (or tabe masu ka?)
2. Sore o taberu no wa dare? (or dare desu ka?)

In my opinion, Pattern 1 is often used to ask 'Who among us', that is, among the people there with the questioner, whereas Pattern 2 is when you really want to know the name of the person, who might or might not be there.

e.g.
A. Dare ga sono kinoko o taberu?
B. Saa... (Don't know...)

kinoko = mushroom. (In this scenario, they don't know whether the mushroom is safe to eat or not.)
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Re: Help with changing objects into topics. "を" to "は"

Postby FlameHaze » Mon 07.01.2013 1:18 pm

Ranja wrote:
I haven't learnt this type of sentences before, but can we say "このプレゼントをほしがっているのはだれですか。"? Would it sound weird?


Good. It is completely natural.


Why do we use "欲しがっている" and not "欲しがる"? Is it the same like we usually use "知っている" and not "知る"?

As for the very formal sentence "だれがこのプレゼントをほっしていますか", how did you get "ほっしています"? Is it some kind of verb conjugation, and the actual root verb is still 欲しがる?
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