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Great book for Grammar

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RE: Great book for Grammar

Postby Justin » Sun 02.12.2006 2:34 am

Not for me, I could care less if japanese use kana in normal chat rooms. The thing is that electronic wise and just keeping it a lot more simple in a chat room, and not having to make it more confusing while you are typing in one of those room using kanji/kana. Just using romaji is simple enough electronicaly.

So...you can read kana/kanji just fine, but you find it easier and simpler to just keep things in romaji...which for me, and many other, is the exact opposite. I mean whatever works best for you, by all means, but I love my Kanji/kana too much to say that romaji somehow makes things easier and simpler, when in fact, would absolutely kill my reading speed, and make synonyms that much harder to differentiate


as japanese gets harder you will notice that some things will not make sense until you see it in romaji

Oh please, give me a break. Not that I'm the definitive souce when it comes to Japanese (that's Tony), but I know a lot more than you probably think. When it comes to more advanced Japanese, maybe for *you* it somehow helps to put things back into romaji, but there is little, if no need at all, for using romaji at that point.


Do not know how to explain it, you'll just have to notice it on your own.

I like how you go and say how much simpler romaji can make things, yet in the end, you give no examples, and just tell people to notice it on your own.


it is something needed in order to realy understand the language.

It would be nice to see some information backing up your claims, as again, I feel you're a bit off base here. Yes, for some people using romaji might make a world of difference, whatever works best for you, but to tell me that I *have* to learn/use romaji to fully understand the language is absolute BS.

Romaji itself isn't necessarily bad, it's just that when you rely on it too much, it can be hard to break free from it. One of my good friends while I was in Japan ended up in a situation where she just got stuck on using romaji, could never get away from it. On days when we had mock lectures where had to take notes, and then later hand them in to be looked over, my friend never fared too well, as yeah, she always took the easy way out and just wrote everything in romaji (which she would always get handed back). Given the time she could write kana/kanji, but pressed for time, she could never keep up. At that point, rather than improving her kana/kanji writing, she would just fall back on romaji, and there in lies the problem. Like you said, for a lot of people it might be easer and simpler to use romaji (when first starting out), but at what cost?
Last edited by Justin on Sun 02.12.2006 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Great book for Grammar

Postby RGmex » Sun 02.12.2006 2:49 am

It would be nice to see some information backing up your claims, as again, I feel you're a bit off base here. Yes, for some people using romaji might make a world of difference, whatever works best for you, but to tell me that I *have* to learn/use romaji to fully understand the language is absolute BS.


how can it be BS?? if you still have to know, since it is part of the language. even normal japanese people learn it when they are kids. O_O

I like how you go and say how much simpler romaji can make things, yet in the end, you give no examples, and just tell people to notice it on your own.


I gave examples when I first posted...saseru form and the new one that works differently now, asobasaseru. O_o

Oh please, give me a break. Not that I'm the definitive souce when it comes to Japanese (that's Tony), but I know a lot more than you probably think. When it comes to more advanced Japanese, maybe for *you* it somehow helps to put things back into romaji, but there is little, if no need at all, for using romaji at that point.


cough, did you even read my post??

I said that it is useful for japanese students who are new learners of the language. For those who are advance, might as well stay away from it. Yeap, I think I said that at the end. Let me quote myself.

Later on when you do become more advance, yeah good idea to stay away from romaji. But as new language learning students, it is by far best to use romaji whenever you get stuck. Personal experience, kind of notice it after 4 years of taking the language. ^_^



After 4 years, I look at it like this, from japanese 1 to 2 it is ok to use romaji. By 4!! if you do not have it down, you might as well just study it some more. Reason for why I said what I said...but I think you missed that part in my post. O_O


Romaji itself isn't necessarily bad, it's just that when you rely on it too much, it can be hard to break free from it. One of my good friends while I was in Japan ended up in a situation where she just got stuck on using romaji, could never get away from it. On days when we had mock lectures where had to take notes, and then later hand them in to be looked over, my friend never fared too well, as yeah, she always took the easy way out and just wrote everything in romaji (which she would always get handed back). Given the time she could write kana/kanji, but pressed for time, she could never keep up. At that point, rather than improving her kana/kanji writing, she would just fall back on romaji, and there in lies the problem. Like you said, for a lot of people it might be easer and simpler to use romaji, but at waht cost?




too bad for her, I do notice that too, but beginning students should just use romaji and just get away from it little by little. Yet, romaji will still be use in normal everyday japanese thingies, like e-mails and chat rooms.Too hard to use those damn japanese programs all the time.



In all, learning japanese using romaji is just a step that everybody takes, even normal native speakers take that same step. I still do not see what is so bad about it. If your friend had bad luck with the writing part...how was her speaking part??

just wondering, since for some people the writing part is the hard part and the speaking part is the easy part of a language.


and chill out dude!!

not need to give me an ego in an online language forum. ^_^

I already had enough of that on anime-forums.

anywho, I should've said little advance stuff for basic japanese topics. Stuff that is shown a little too advance, like how genki seems to set up some of its stuff.

Anywho, chill out man !!
Last edited by RGmex on Sun 02.12.2006 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Great book for Grammar

Postby Justin » Sun 02.12.2006 3:53 am

After 4 years, I look at it like this, from japanese 1 to 2 it is ok to use romaji. By 4!! if you do not have it down, you might as well just study it some more. Reason for why I said what I said...but I think you missed that part in my post. O_O


I did read your post, and am well aware of what you had to say, but then why did you continue on to say these things...


I think that romaji helps a lot of people when it comes to the more advance grammar points.

as japanese gets harder you will notice that some things will not make sense until you see it in romaji


I was just trying to figure out *how* exactly putting something back into romaji helps someone with advance Japanese, and even at this point, I'm still perplexed by those statements.


learning japanese using romaji is just a step that everybody takes

Not everyone. At the school I attended in Japan, the lowest level classes were made up of people from all around the world, hence using romaji was out of the question. The first time they saw romaji was during our computer class, a year and a half after they had started. That is why I said you don't HAVE to learn romaji. You'll most likely use to when typing on a computer, but other than that, you don't have to learn/use it to know the language.


If your friend had bad luck with the writing part...how was her speaking part??

Her speaking was average, but considering she had been there for nine years, you'd think she would have been a lot better. Like I said before though, it's just when people rely on it too much when it becomes a problem, and I'm guessing that's why people generally say to avoid it completely, or ween yourself off it as soon as you can, but for some, like me friend, that's easier said than done.


and chill out dude!!

not need to give me an ego in an online language forum. ^_^

Anywho, chill out man !!

Sorry if what I had to say came across as if I were upset or something, but that's far from the fact. I was just having a nice little argument with you about some points you brought up, nothing wrong with that, is there?
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RE: Great book for Grammar

Postby Harisenbon » Sun 02.12.2006 5:46 am

I'm not going to get into this, but I'm just befuddeled that there are people who think that romaji is better for reading than actual Japanese.

It just boggles my mind.
dattesaa,douyattekonofuuniyomeruno?
ro-majide,kanjimonaishi,supe-sumonaishi,
ironnnakakikatamoarushi. tatoeba,watashihaeikennohitodakara,
[shi]wokakukedo,futuunonihonnjinndattara[si]wokakudeshou?
soshite,nanndejoukyuunabunnpougaroma-jidekaitahougawakariyasui?
gyakuni,mottowakarinikuitoomou.
ukemikeiharoma-jidemottoyomiyasuikamoshirenaikedo,ukemikeiha
betunijoukyuujanai.

How was that?
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RE: Great book for Grammar

Postby Txkun » Sun 02.12.2006 6:06 am

RGmex wrote:
Where did you read that?? I will like to see that. Since from my own experience, they do use romaji a lot too in the computer and internet world.


I see... well here there are some links to people that says the same...
I would like to hear an opinion from a native speaker here anyway.
http://www.eslteachersboard.com/cgi-bin/japan-info/index.pl?noframes;read=74
http://www.peterpayne.net/2003/03/japanese-language-overview-hiragana.html
http://japanese.nearlythere.com/2005/06/30/avoid-romanji

About internet world and computer... ok, but that's an interface problem.
For example with my keyboard I can't write "nuori tyttö" (copied and pasted from a finnish board). I can't write this "ö" so I could guess I could write "ou" or "oo".
But for a finnish is "ö". Unicode and other codings weren't available at year 0 of computers and internet, I think.

RGmex wrote:
And from what I learned in my japanese class, romaji is using roman latin to make sense out of the japanese language, not using the english language, but using the roman latin sounds of those words. Reason for why when a spanish speaker reads romaji, it sounds like he/she is speaking japanese, but he/she in reality is using the spanish accent.
I did say japanese chat room people, yet a lot of those japanese chat room people who use romaji in chat rooms are japanese native speakers, been to a few of them myself. I;ve even gotten text messeges from japanese buds in romaji. Kind of gives you that technology wise, Japanese natives speakers use romaji a lot more than the kana/kanji system. Makes things a lot easier.

I don't get it. You can compare romaji and kana. But kanji is much different.
If I write kami for example I can mean: god, paper, hair. And japanese has a huge number of words like that. Traslation from only kana is a nightmare.

RGmex wrote:
It is better to avoid romaji as much as possible


no, I disagree with you. I think that romaji helps a lot of people when it comes to the more advance grammar points. I've seen it first hand.

try to make sense out of the whole

hanasaserareta and asobasaseta verb stems, without using romaji to make sense out of it and you will get lost. >_< A lot of people tripped on them in my japanese 4 class. So no, romaji is not all that useless

Later on when you do become more advance, yeah good idea to stay away from romaji. But as new language learning students, it is by far best to use romaji whenever you get stuck. Personal experience, kind of notice it after 4 years of taking the language. ^_^

We agree on this. Romaji for starters isn't bad at all. I think, anyway, that after little time it would be good to start to use kana only. But since I wasn't in a Japanese class it's just my opinion.
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RE: Great book for Grammar

Postby alwaysmine » Sun 02.12.2006 1:28 pm

Um.... back to the dictionary of basic japanese grammar, RGmex pointed out that it's hard to find this one, so if anyone is looking i found it at Uwajimaya (at least the Seattle one).
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RE: Great book for Grammar

Postby Justin » Sun 02.12.2006 2:09 pm

alwaysmine wrote:
Um.... back to the dictionary of basic japanese grammar, RGmex pointed out that it's hard to find this one, so if anyone is looking i found it at Uwajimaya (at least the Seattle one).

I've actually never had that hard of a time finding it at all. When I first bought mine, I picked it up at my local Barnes & Noble, which was quite a while ago, but last time I was there, I still saw they had some sitting back there. If not, you could always order it online...

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=1N6gc94DeI&isbn=4789004546&TXT=Y&itm=7
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RE: Great book for Grammar

Postby AJBryant » Sun 02.12.2006 2:28 pm

Harisenbon said:
I have heard from many people that the "Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar" is very good. I have the Intermediate version (no kana) which has really good, in-depth explanations of a lot of phrases.


I don't know about you, but my copies of Makino and Tsutsui's DBJG and DIJG have kana/kanji text in them -- as is shown by the screen shot RGmex posted. ;)

RGmex said:
I gave examples when I first posted...saseru form and the new one that works differently now, asobasaseru. O_o


No, you only mentioned them. You have yet to show why romaji would in any way be superior to kana there -- especially as kana is the natural state of the language. Just saying something is so doesn't make it so.

After 4 years, I look at it like this, from japanese 1 to 2 it is ok to use romaji. By 4!! if you do not have it down, you might as well just study it some more. Reason for why I said what I said...but I think you missed that part in my post. O_O


I've oft quoted my first Japanese professor, who told us all that we had the first week in class to learn all the kana -- after that week, if he saw anyone using romaji at all, he'd take us out back and shoot us, or flunk us.


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RE: Great book for Grammar

Postby josh_mac » Sun 02.12.2006 6:14 pm

thanks alot! I have been looking for a good Grammar book, do you know any web site that will deliver it to the UK?
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RE: Great book for Grammar

Postby AJBryant » Sun 02.12.2006 7:59 pm

Amazon may carry it.


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RE: Great book for Grammar

Postby Harisenbon » Sun 02.12.2006 8:24 pm

AJBryant wrote:
Harisenbon said:
I have heard from many people that the "Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar" is very good. I have the Intermediate version (no kana) which has really good, in-depth explanations of a lot of phrases.


I don't know about you, but my copies of Makino and Tsutsui's DBJG and DIJG have kana/kanji text in them -- as is shown by the screen shot RGmex posted. ;)
Tony


You know, I need to either improve my english, or stop half-assedly replying to things.
I meand that it has no ROMAJI. It has kana. :@
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RE: Great book for Grammar

Postby AJBryant » Mon 02.13.2006 1:25 am

I need to either improve my english, or stop half-assedly replying to things.
I meand that it has no ROMAJI. It has kana.


:o
:p
Been there. Done that. Got the T-shirt. ;)

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RE: Great book for Grammar

Postby clay » Mon 02.13.2006 9:22 am

In elementry schools in japan, it is normal for a tacher to teach their students the japanese kana system by using romaji and putting the romaji under or over the hiragana/katakana japanese word. It just makes it simple for a child's mind to grasp the idea of what sound goes to what hiragana/katakana.


Sorry for coming on the scene so late, but I don't think anyone caught this.

This is incorrect. Japanese children learn hiragana during first grade. Romaji doesn't appear until around 4th grade. I remember teaching at a few elementary schools where 4-5th graders were studying romaji. It isn't easier than kana. It is just you (and I) are more accustomed to it.

I also vote for Dictionary of Basic (and Intermediate) Japanese Grammar. These are two classics. [Just a shamless plug, but we stock both at theJapanshop.net]
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RE: Great book for Grammar

Postby hyperconjugated » Mon 02.13.2006 9:41 am

clay wrote:
Sorry for coming on the scene so late, but I don't think anyone caught this.

This is incorrect. Japanese children learn hiragana during first grade. Romaji doesn't appear until around 4th grade. I remember teaching at a few elementary schools where 4-5th graders were studying romaji. It isn't easier than kana. It is just you (and I) are more accustomed to it.

I also vote for Dictionary of Basic (and Intermediate) Japanese Grammar. These are two classics. [Just a shamless plug, but we stock both at theJapanshop.net]


Do those two books combined cover the grammar needed for JLPT 2 or 1?
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RE: Great book for Grammar

Postby Harisenbon » Wed 02.15.2006 12:31 am

Hyperconjugated,

Intermediate grammar covers most of the stuff you'll see on 2kyu. I don't think that it touches any of the ikkyu stuff though.
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