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English help

英語を勉強している方のためのフォーラムです。練習のために英語の文章を投稿してもかまわなく、英語の文法・語彙に関する質問をしてもけっこうです。

English help

Postby sgtkwol » Tue 04.25.2006 1:23 pm

coco wrote:
First of all, as a Japanese I...

Since you meantioned it in another thread...keep in mind that the word Japanese does not mean only people but could be a Japanese class or other noun. But I gotta say the Japanese system is much easier in that reguards. English ways of stating that I am from "a certain place" can end in -ian, -ite, -er, -an, -ese, and sometimes you just have to say "I am from...". Ex. Canadian-from Canada, New Yorker-someone from New York, suburbanite-from the suburbs. The worst part is that there are individual rules for each ending:o. "I am a Canadian" and "I am Canadian" both make grammatical sense while "I am suburbanite" and "I am a Japanese" aren't as good as "I am a suburbanite" and "I am Japanese". Also, some like New Yorker would not be used to describe a thing from New York but only a person from New York, while suburbanite, Japanese, and Canadian can all describe people and things from the respective places.

Hopefully, I haven't confused anybody, too badly.
If you are in a foreign land where they don't understand your native tongue, just speak louder and slower...in the language that they don't know.
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RE: English help

Postby GyakuGirePanda » Tue 04.25.2006 4:38 pm

Sorry, but I don't get the point. What Coco-san said seems fine to me... whats the problem?
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RE: English help

Postby hungryhotei » Tue 04.25.2006 4:49 pm

It looks fine to me too.
kokosan used japanese as a noun, not an adjective. ie
n. pl. Japanese

1.
1. A native or inhabitant of Japan.
2. A person of Japanese ancestry.
2. The language of the Japanese, possibly related to the Altaic family, written in kana and Chinese characters.


I agree 'I am a Japanese' doesn't sound very good, but thats not what kokosan said.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&sa ... arch&meta=
Last edited by hungryhotei on Tue 04.25.2006 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: English help

Postby TrilinguisT » Tue 04.25.2006 6:37 pm

you left off greek... are you from greece? "yes, i am greek"
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RE: English help

Postby sgtkwol » Wed 04.26.2006 12:26 am

Hmm, sorry about that, guess it is grammatically correct, but it still does not seem "natural" to use the -ese words as nouns.
If you are in a foreign land where they don't understand your native tongue, just speak louder and slower...in the language that they don't know.
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RE: English help

Postby coco » Wed 04.26.2006 12:42 am

Sgtkwol-san,
Thank you for your help.
So "as a Japanese citizen" might be better?
Sorry, if I took misunderstanding your explanation. :p
(I guess this would be endless thread, because of my English.. :D )
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RE: English help

Postby Phurdonk » Wed 04.26.2006 2:23 am

So "as a Japanese citizen" might be better?

There's one problem with that. You can be a "Japanese citizen" and not be "Japanese". "First of all, as a Japanese..." looks correct but I agree, it doesn't sound natural. I think that "as a Japanese person" sounds better. :D
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RE: English help

Postby Mukade » Wed 04.26.2006 3:03 am

As an American, I'd have to say that Coco's original post sounds just fine to me.

I mean, if I had to say 'as a Japanese person,' would I also have to say 'as an American person' or 'as a Kiwi person?' :|
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RE: English help

Postby zengargoyle » Wed 04.26.2006 3:11 am

a bunch of links on ethnonyms, origins and constructions:

http://www.languagehat.com/archives/002256.php
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/do ... 513569.htm
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/language ... 02775.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnonym
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demonym
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exonym_and_endonym
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/-onym
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ad ... lace_names
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?nod ... he%20World
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?nod ... of%20Japan

quite a complex matter... i'm sorry that these links are probably of little use to our Japanese friends, i'm sure some of them are of little use to our English speaking friends. :D

it is noted on the Wikipedia Denonyms page that the '-ese' construction is usually only adjectival:
* -ese (Taiwan → Taiwanese, Vienna → Viennese, the Tyrol → Tyrolese)

* "-ese" is also usually only proper as an adjective, or to refer to the entirety. Thus, "the Chinese person" is the singular, "the Chinese people" is the small-number plural, and "the Chinese" refers to the government of China, or to the group of all people of Chinese ancestry.


so, Cocoさん, i would think that "as a Japanese person" is just a tiny bit more correct, あら探しだけです. (but "as a Japanese" does sound more normal than "as a Chinese"...)
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RE: English help

Postby coco » Wed 04.26.2006 6:32 am

Thanks for explanations. m(__)m
This is very interesting. Because almost Japanese people introduce his/her self as " I am a Japanese". (me too^^;
(correction: I can't say " almost " sorry.)
Ok, let me check.
Could you please teach me how do native express those sentences?
1) Are you a Japanese?
2) He is a Japanese.
3) They are Japanese.
4) We are Japanese.

my guessing ...
1) Are you a Japanese person?
2) He is a Japanese man.
3) They are Japanese people.
4) We are Japanese people.(?????)

Nippon+ Nipponian seems more convenient.
like "as a Nipponian." ← if there was a word Nipponian, this sounds would be Okay?
Ohhhh! In this case, what do you assume the the word as "language of Nippon"?
Will it be also Nippon or Nipponish? umm.

Thank you.
----
Add:
Zen-san: nice site. I wonder how it works for "Italian" ? Please let me know your opinion of why not it became "Italianese" for my curiosity(?). :)

edit:correction
Last edited by coco on Thu 04.27.2006 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: English help

Postby Charlie Brown » Wed 04.26.2006 6:46 am

First of all, as a Japanese I...

this sounds right and natural to me. maybe more correct would be "First of all, being Japanese myself, I"
1) Are you a Japanese?
2) He is a Japanese.
3) They are Japanese.
4) We are Japanese.

1. Are you Japanese?
2. he is Japanese
3. we are japanese
4. they are japanese
B)
チャーリー
Last edited by Charlie Brown on Wed 04.26.2006 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: English help

Postby Machina Maw » Wed 04.26.2006 7:07 am

coco wrote:
Could you please teach me how do native express those sentences?
1) Are you a Japanese?
2) He is a Japanese.
3) They are Japanese.
4) We are Japanese.


If you're asking someone their nationality, the natural-sounding question would be:
1) Are you Japanese? / Are you from Japan?
2) He is Japanese./He is from Japan.

(3) and (4) are correct.

coco wrote:
Nippon+ Nipponian seems more convenient.
like "as a Nipponian." ← if there was a word Nipponian, this sounds would be Okay?
Ohhhh! In this case, what do you assume the the word as "language of Nippon"?
Will it be also Nippon or Nipponish? umm.

Thank you.


Hehe. If the word "Nippon" represented Japan in English, we would say that a person from Nippon is 'Nipponish'; or a 'Nipponian'. The language would probably be called 'Nipponish'. Usually the words ending in '-ish' or '-ian' are interchangable, in some cases. :)
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RE: English help

Postby AJBryant » Wed 04.26.2006 9:50 am

Hmm, sorry about that, guess it is grammatically correct, but it still does not seem "natural" to use the -ese words as nouns.


A lot of people have problems with the words. I don't know why.

As a former newspaper editor, I can tell you that there is nothing LINGISTICALLY wrong with the usage of "a Japanese" or "a Chinese."

It is perfectly normal to use the adjectival form of the national identity as personal identity in most cases.

He is American --> He is an American.
He is Greek. --> He's a Greek.
He is Russian. --> He's a Russian.
He is Chinese. --> He's a Chinese. (Heck, beats the old traditional "Chinaman")

Regardless of some people thinking that they sound odd, they are PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE. Why does it sound odd? Well... our (Western) culture is westernocentric. We, as kids, grow up hearing about things in the west more. By the time we start encountering Japanese and Chinese things, we've established in our minds that those are adjectives and so it never sounds right to call someone by an indirect word like an adjective.

But we have no problem making distinctions like "He's an Italian" vs. "He's a Frenchman." (Question to ponder: why are "Englishman" and "Frenchman" the NORM but "Chinaman" is supposed to be offensive?) It's just that "Japanese" and "Chinese" don't sound like "people words" to most people.

Tony
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RE: English help

Postby zengargoyle » Wed 04.26.2006 9:54 am

I·tal·ian
adj.
Of or relating to Italy or its people, language, or culture.
n.
1.
1. A native or inhabitant of Italy.
2. A person of Italian descent.
2. The Romance language of the Italians and an official language of Switzerland.

[Middle English, from Latin Italinus, from Italia Italy.]

italia
n : a republic in southern Europe on the Italian Peninsula; was the core of the Roman Republic and the Roman Empire between the 4th century BC and the 5th century AD [syn: Italy, Italian Republic, Italia]

"Italy" in Italian is "Italia". so in English, just like "America" is "American", "Italia" is "Italian".
A·mer·i·can
adj.
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
3. Of or relating to any of the Native American peoples.
4. Indigenous to North or South America. Used of plants and animals.
n.
1. A native or inhabitant of America.
2. A citizen of the United States.
3. American English.

note how Italian and American have both 'adj.' (adjective) and 'n.' (noun) forms...
note how Japanese has 'adj.', 'n.' and 'pl. Japanese' (plural). the plural is the same as the singular. this is a strong indication that 'Japanese' is a Mass-Noun which is Uncountable.
Jap·a·nese
adj.
Of or relating to Japan or its people, language, or culture.
n. pl. Japanese
1.
1. A native or inhabitant of Japan.
2. A person of Japanese ancestry.
2. The language of the Japanese, possibly related to the Altaic family, written in kana and Chinese characters.

in theory, you can not use 'a/an' (an indefinate article) with uncountable-nouns, you can use 'the' (the definate article) with uncountable-nouns.

The Japanese like sushi. (OK)
A Japansese likes sushi. (Sounds Weird)
A Japanese person likes sushi. (OK, Japanese is an adjective modifying 'person')
A person likes sushi. (OK)

As the Japanese live on an island, they eat alot of fish. (OK)
As a Japanese lives on an island, they eat alot of fish. (Sounds Weird)
As a Japanese person lives on an island, they eat alot of fish. (OK)

As a Japanese I live on an island, I eat alot of fish. (???)
hrmm... maybe Japanese *is* acting as an adjective modifying 'I' in this case. but...
As a I live on an island, I eat alot of fish. (Sounds Weird again)

English (unlike Japanese) has singular vs. plural, 1st/2nd/3rd person, requires determiners to agree with nouns and plurality to agree with verbs... i think that English is quite flexible and tolerant of this sort of usage. and i think that the combination of 'a' + XXX + 'I' forces the singular-ness when reading. so, final verdict:

◎ As the Japanese ...
◎ As the Japanese people ...
◎ As a Japanese person ...
◯ As a Japanese I ...
△ As a Japanese ...

that's my 三円.
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RE: English help

Postby coco » Wed 04.26.2006 10:33 am

わっ。Zenさん。思いっきり勘違いの質問してごめんなさい。Orz.
an ankoro mochi, an anko? とかいろいろ考えてたら 混乱してItalian が出て来ちゃったんですね。Italyですよね、元は。失礼しまた。お手数かけてすみません。
ほかは、ちょっとじっくり読ませていただきます。取り敢えずお詫び。(平伏)

from Zen-san 's link
In the 21st century, the world has evolved into an era when racial discrimination is not tolerated. It is time the names in Group II were abolished.


やっぱりNipponianですかね 。訳わからなくなってきたけど。^^;
Last edited by coco on Wed 04.26.2006 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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