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What's that (tsu) in Kun Readings?

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What's that (tsu) in Kun Readings?

Postby Xmax » Mon 05.02.2005 8:38 am

Embarassing question... :)
I often see on this website (and in Kanji dictionaries too) some Kun readings that have a (tsu) within brackets, e.g.

四 - Four
Kun Readings: よん yon, よ yo, よっ(つ) yot(tsu), よ(つ) yo(tsu)

Aren't よつ and よっつ just alternative readings to よ?
Why using those brackets then?

Thanks in advance!
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RE: What's that (tsu) in Kun Readings?

Postby kossori » Mon 05.02.2005 9:11 am

I do believe it is there as a guide. When making forms, って・った・etc. Example:

EX:

はい・る = 入る
い・る = 入る
はい・って = 入って
い・って = 入って

I am not certain though. But just a speculation.
私達は決して実際に存在していない・・・私達が覚えられていなければ
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RE: What's that (tsu) in Kun Readings?

Postby Xmax » Mon 05.02.2005 10:00 am

kossori wrote:
I do believe it is there as a guide. When making forms, って・った・etc. Example:

EX:

はい・る = 入る
い・る = 入る
はい・って = 入って
い・って = 入って

I am not certain though. But just a speculation.


I understand. But, your example is for a verb (from dictionary -ru form to its conjugations), right?
How to draw a parallel for the example I made? (四 is not a verb...)
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RE: What's that (tsu) in Kun Readings?

Postby kossori » Mon 05.02.2005 10:10 am

Xmax wrote:
I understand. But, your example is for a verb (from dictionary -ru form to its conjugations), right?
How to draw a parallel for the example I made? (四 is not a verb...)


you mean like:

よん、 四、 四つ(よっ(つ))? I believe it is still optional based on context and reading. once you learn a good deal of vocabulary first it should be easier to distinguish. 私も新しい・w
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RE: What's that (tsu) in Kun Readings?

Postby Schattenjedi » Mon 05.02.2005 10:17 am

Xmax wrote:
Embarassing question... :)
I often see on this website (and in Kanji dictionaries too) some Kun readings that have a (tsu) within brackets, e.g.

四 - Four
Kun Readings: よん yon, よ yo, よっ(つ) yot(tsu), よ(つ) yo(tsu)

Aren't よつ and よっつ just alternative readings to よ?
Why using those brackets then?

Thanks in advance!


The () designates a part of the word that is not part of the kanji reading and therefore must be written in hiragana. So your example よっ(つ) would regularly be written as 四つ.
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RE: What's that (tsu) in Kun Readings?

Postby redfoxer » Mon 05.02.2005 10:20 am

kossori wrote:
Xmax wrote:
...you mean like:

よん、 四、 四つ(よっ(つ))? I believe it is still optional based on context and reading. once you learn a good deal of vocabulary first it should be easier to distinguish. 私も新しい・w


This is correct to my understanding. Many kanji have multiple on and kun readings which is why kanji are very context sensitive. You'll learn with experience what reading to use and when.

Yot(tsu) is a counter, meaning four of something as (tsu) part is the counter. You could use yon on its own to count but the on reading (chinese) is generally used for counting inanimate objects. Youll also use nin (people) and some other counters for flat/long object so on.

And like in english, the brackets donate an optional usage as is required in the context. E,g (dont quote me on this tho :P ) (s)he meaning it could be a he or a she depending on context....ummmm kinda hard to explain.
Check http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=417
for a better explaination cos im too a learner :P :D HTH

-red
Last edited by redfoxer on Mon 05.02.2005 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: What's that (tsu) in Kun Readings?

Postby battousai » Mon 05.02.2005 11:32 am

I don't know how this got to be so complicated but.. whatever is in the parenthesis is simply what must be written in kana.
To make a clearer example with a verb, Ikimasu is 行きます but obviously the kanji 行 only represents the い sound/part of the word. So it would be 行(きます) or 行(く)
Anyway, in applying to your example, the difference it was trying to show was 四 can be read yon when representing 4 numerically, but when the kanji is used as the classic counter 四つ the tsy is not a part of the kanji's reading and must be written seperately. I hope this clears it up.
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RE: What's that (tsu) in Kun Readings?

Postby Xmax » Mon 05.02.2005 11:43 am

mmm... seems I have opened the Pandora's box... :p
Thanks everybody for the help and the hints!

@kossori: thanks for the clarifications on the "optional/changeable" use of certain suffixes when using numbers, and verb conjugations.

@redfoxer: I didn't spot your thread at first: it contains useful information! btw, I agree with you I wouldn't suggest to read this:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7826
to anyone who's not interested in a painful headache :D:D:D

@Schattenjedi:
Schattenjedi wrote:
Xmax wrote:
How to draw a parallel for the example I made?

The () designates a part of the word that is not part of the kanji reading and therefore must be written in hiragana. So your example よっ(つ) would regularly be written as 四つ.


That's probably the closer answer to my original question about what is (aside specific examples on numbers, verbs, etc.) the general meaning of those brackets.
I try to put here your definition w/ further info, just to check my understanding:

those brakets include optional/changeable part of the words that *must* be written by hiragana (e.g. okurigana) and are not part of the "stem" of the word, which is specified by the Kanji.

Correct?
Last edited by Xmax on Mon 05.02.2005 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: What's that (tsu) in Kun Readings?

Postby Xmax » Mon 05.02.2005 11:51 am

battousai wrote:
I don't know how this got to be so complicated but.. whatever is in the parenthesis is simply what must be written in kana.


I see only now your answer (we were posting at the same time!).
This seems to be a further confirmation of the above...
Thanks to you too!
Last edited by Xmax on Mon 05.02.2005 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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