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言う・言われる

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言う・言われる

Postby lomagu » Wed 05.25.2005 11:07 am

Hi, could someone please explain when to use 言われる (or 言われた)as opposed to 言う (or 言った)? I've done some of my own searching, but I'm not sure when it's ok to use one and not the other. Does anyone have any examples? ありがとう!
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RE: 言う・言われる

Postby Gaijinian » Wed 05.25.2005 4:21 pm

I guess so...
K, it is a verb form.
Ru verbs= pre masu and Rareru
U Verbs, =pre short negative + -areru (e.g. iu iwareru)
Suru= Sareru

It is something done to you. 渡辺さんに「日本語が上手だね」って言われた。. Watanabe said to me that my Japanese is good.

It can be... In the non-third person, also.
彼は、日本名を付けられてある。
He has a Japanese name "attached."

I'm often asked about life in America.
アメリカでの生活についてよく聞かれる。

それでは、わかるでしょうか?
Last edited by Gaijinian on Wed 05.25.2005 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: 言う・言われる

Postby lomagu » Thu 05.26.2005 6:18 am

うん、なんとなく分かるけど、、

how is this sentence:

渡辺さんに「日本語が上手だね」って言われた。. Watanabe said to me that my Japanese is good.

different from:

渡辺さんは私に日本語が上手だねって言った。

??
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RE: 言う・言われる

Postby Gaijinian » Thu 05.26.2005 5:33 pm

Slight nuance difference.
In English, there is nearly not translated difference.

Notice the location of に。渡辺さん言われた。・渡辺さんは私言った。
The first one could be translated as: It was said of my that my Japanese is good by Watanabe. Where as the second one, to me anyway, seems like he said it right "at" you.

悪い兄がいるから、皆に私が良くない人だと思わせられた。
I've got a bad brother, so I was forced to be thought of as a bad person by everyone.

Got to go...
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RE: 言う・言われる

Postby lomagu » Sun 05.29.2005 6:55 am

ok, 分かった。説明してくれてありがとう!

っていうかさぁ、他のポストから、「日本滞在の色々な経験」のこと、、読んで、面白いと思った。でも、返事あげなかった。ごめん。私にとって、そのthreadは難しすぎるんだ。まあいいけど、頑張る。:D
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RE: 言う・言われる

Postby Gaijinian » Sun 06.12.2005 10:44 am

This old, but I felt like adding:
~aseru form is also the "it is done" form.
It is said that mt. fuji is the birth place of the sun. Kinda feel.
That would be iwareru.
It is eaten. taberareru
ii? That might help.

スピーチで、優勝する人は、日本への空港切符、無料にまらったのに、ワシは演説の日、忙しくて、出来なかったんだねえ。残念でしょう:(。日本に行きたいもん・・・。
Last edited by Gaijinian on Tue 06.14.2005 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: 言う・言われる

Postby lomagu » Thu 06.16.2005 8:21 am

すごい残念だよ!かわいそう:(。まぁ、また今度ね。あきらめないで!
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RE: 言う・言われる

Postby Spaztick » Thu 06.16.2005 11:40 pm

Bascially when you see the form ~(ra)reru, it's the potential form. Potential form is just a fancy way of saying "can ~."

Wakareru - can understand (have the potential to understand)
Iareru - can speak

Of course, the two big exceptions are suru and kuru:
suru -> dekiru (of which I'm sure you know by now)
kuru -> kireru

Anata wa nihongo o hanaseru!

Now, as for me, I know how to change teh -ru and -su verbs to potential, but I'm lacking in the rest. Can anyone post a list?
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RE: 言う・言われる

Postby Harisenbon » Fri 06.17.2005 12:35 am

Actually, 分かる has the potential form already built in. If you say 分かれる it means to seperate. I belive you're thinking of passive form, not potential form. Potential form is I can do, passive is I was done it. あれる is passive 受身形

言える is I can speak, not いあれる.

for changing any verb to potential, change the last character to the え column and add る。if it ends in an え character (like 食べる) you can add れる or られる

行く  行ける
食べる 食べれる
遊ぶ  遊べる

I think that's the rule anyhow.
Last edited by Harisenbon on Fri 06.17.2005 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: 言う・言われる

Postby Gaijinian » Fri 06.17.2005 11:05 am

食べる 食べれる

No, s-san was right in that ru-verbs become rareru.
For u-verbs, go to the 'e' hiragana.iu>>ieru iku>>ikeru

So, Taberareru can mean:
I will be eaten, or
Can eat...:D
2x meaning, kind of like burning your dad-ish thing, neh?B)

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Last edited by Gaijinian on Fri 06.17.2005 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: 言う・言われる

Postby Harisenbon » Fri 06.17.2005 7:41 pm

Yup,
る verbs become られる for potential or passive.

食べれる is a spoken contraction of 食べられる, because it's such a pain to say. It is technically not grammatically correct, but in use, 食べられる is actually less common.

EDIT From The college 国語 class, my fiancee has decided to step in
社長は食べられました。 has three meaninings
(尊敬) The president ate.
(可煤j The president could eat.
(受身系) The president was eaten.

Because there are so many ways of reading the られる ending, there is the possibility for a lot of confusion. For example, a subordinate says to his boss+
せんべいを食べられますか? He is trying to use (1), polite speak. But to the boss, it might seem as if he is being asked if he CAN eat senbei, and will probably get upset. "I'm not that old! My teeth aren't that weak!", etc.

Thus, the TRULY correct way would be to say 食べることが出来ますか?

END

Although to be honest, if I had to say 何々ことが出来ますか? everytime I wanted to use potential, I think I'd go insane.
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RE: 言う・言われる

Postby lomagu » Sat 06.18.2005 12:08 am

I heard that the passive form isn't used in Japanese as much as it is in English. People are more likely to use the regular verb form (unless it's something bad that happened to them). What do you guys think? I'm only asking because although Japanese verb conjugation is simple & straight forward, I think it's 面倒くさい. Some words can get kinda long when dealing with passive (and also causative & causative-passive...). I'm lazy.
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RE: 言う・言われる

Postby Harisenbon » Sat 06.18.2005 12:17 am

It's the opposite, actually. Passive is used ALL THE TIME in Japanese. Much more than in English. Verb congugation is a pain, but at least it follows rules. English verb congugation sucks.

Eat Ate Eaten

WHY?!?!?
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RE: 言う・言われる

Postby zengargoyle » Sat 06.18.2005 1:47 am

Harisenbon wrote:
...
English verb congugation sucks.

Eat Ate Eaten

WHY?!?!?


The child the parents had had had had had breakfast.

The child had breakfast. -> past -> The child had had breakfast.
The child the parents had. -> past -> The child the parents had had.
(the parents had the child via a surrogate mother, so they had the child had)

The child the parents had had had had had breakfast....

(sorry, i had to bring this up. :o )
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RE: 言う・言われる

Postby netarou » Sat 06.18.2005 2:39 am

社長は食べられました。

When you want to say 食べる in honorific expression, you should use 召し上がる(めしあがる) instead of 食べられる.
「食べる」の敬体としては、「食べられる」より「召し上がる」の方が適切でしょう。
In this case, 食べられる sounds like to be eaten.:o
この場合ですと、「食べられる」という阜サは受身の意味合いが強く感じられます。
社長は召し上がりました。 is a better expression.
「社長は召し上がりました。」と言った方がよろしいかと思います。

せんべいを食べられますか?

おせんべいはいかがですか?
This expression is better.
こちらの言い回しの方がより適切かと思います。
おせんべいを召し上がられますか?
おせんべいを召されますか?
おせんべいをお召しになられますか?
These expressions are nice, too.
これらを用いても高「ません。

Here are some funny examples of れる/られる in addition to 食べる/食べられる.
以上の「食べる、食べられる」に加えて、「れる」及び「られる」の愉快な例を挙げましょう。

行(い)く→行かれる
いかれる sounds like "go mad".
「いかれる」では発狂したと捉えられかねません。
可: 社長(しゃちょう)はいかれた。 My boss tripped out. My boss went mad.
良: 社長はお出(い)でになられた。社長はお越(こ)しになられた。 My boss went out./My boss arrived.

惹(ひ)く→惹かれる be attracted to
ひかれる sounds like "get hit by a car".
「ひかれる」は「轢かれる」などと勘違いしやすいですね。
可: 彼(か)の方(かた)にお嬢様(じょうさま)はひかれていらっしゃる。 Her ladyship gets hit by his car.
良: お嬢様は彼の方をお慕(した)い吹iもう)し上(あ)げていらっしゃる。 Her ladyship is attracted to him.

付(つ)ける→付けられる
付けられる sounds like "someone shadows me".
「付けられる」は後を追われているのかと思ってしまいますね。
可: お嬢様に付けられたのは執事(しつじ)である。 It was a butler whom her ladyship shadowed.
良: お嬢様にお仕(つか)えさせなさったのは執事である。 He/She made a butler to serve her ladyship.

These are funny, but difficult examples.
可笑しくも難しい例となってしまいました。
You don't have to care at all, though.
全く気にする必要もないのであしからず。
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