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Japanese Identity and The Group.

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RE: Japanese Identity and The Group.

Postby Tspoonami » Sat 09.23.2006 4:11 pm

Tessen wrote:
tip: any sort of generalization is bound to lead to problems.

All people who generalize are stupid.
Sometimes I think that I'm afraid of thinking, and that scares me.
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RE: Japanese Identity and The Group.

Postby coco » Sat 09.23.2006 6:08 pm

Ezrach wrote:
Evidence seems to show it as such, with the suicide rate so high in Japan. That, coupled with the unrelated but overwhelming tendency for Japanese tourists to call people "foreigners" even when the Japanese tourists themselves are in a different country. Or, the reaction one might get from a foreigner in Japan calling a Japanese person "outsider" - it's a big issue.


遺書のある自殺者のうち40.0%が健康上の理由。
次いで、経済・生活問題(破産・借金)が31.4%、家庭問題が9.8%、
勤務問題(会社での人間関係等)は6.3%です。
(今年6月に出た報告書.2005年のまとめ)
http://www.npa.go.jp/toukei/chiiki6/20060605.pdf
死ぬより怖いのは「病気になること」のようですね。
調査年度にバラつきがありますが、
http://www2.ttcn.ne.jp/~honkawa/2770.html
で見る限り日本の自殺率は10位です。そして11位はスリランカです。
リトアニア、ロシア、ハンガリーなどの国々と日本の共通項は何かありますか?

追記:
ご参考までにこちらのリンクも添えておきます。
http://www.epochtimes.jp/jp/2005/08/html/d87855.html
Last edited by coco on Sat 09.23.2006 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Japanese Identity and The Group.

Postby Ezrach » Sat 09.23.2006 9:11 pm

It's not that abstract. It's a pretty straightforward topic, I was just being polite and giving you the benefit of the doubt. There are few responses here because I notice that many people are apologists, and it's hard to come to terms with Japan not being some sort of heaven on Earth.

The group identity is important in every society, but in Japan it is very openly pronounced. In America, it seems that people want to get out of the office and get home to their family as fast as possible, leading the image of Americans to be of the family group mentality. Japanese men sacrifice a lot of their time to their jobs, and they belittle their family in conversations (which is called for in social etiquette, or else they'd be "oya-baka"). It seems that Japanese stress the importance of the work/school group, but they also refer to themselves as "us Japanese" in normal conversation. Americans tend to prize the individual. (Well, ideally they do. These days it's more about being a "patriot")

Tessen wrote:
tip: any sort of generalization is bound to lead to problems.


Americans don't like generalizations and race theories. They think that if a theory hurts someone, then its wrong. But, it's the Americans that are wrong.
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RE: Japanese Identity and The Group.

Postby Tessen » Sat 09.23.2006 9:12 pm

事項の上で自らの問題は解けられるようになるでしょう?
私も疑問がある。書いたことは世界のどこもに付けられるのに、日本に向けるにしました。理由は? (not just because this is the japanese page. )
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RE: Japanese Identity and The Group.

Postby Ezrach » Sat 09.23.2006 10:01 pm

Because I've discussed it at length about America with dear friends who have also read the book, and I have discussed it at length about Korea with my wife who is Korean. And, in both of those cases, there have been considerable similarities between the book and the country in discussion.

I could also go on about Fahrenheit 451 and the decline of reading. Where in America it's reality TV that has replaced the intellectual, and in Japan it's the manga. I chose to just stick with 1984. I'm more curious, now, why it's such a taboo topic amongst some of the posters here.

coco: I understand that Japan is not the top country on the suicide list, but the countries that it is compared to are relatively poor, or exist in conditions that are not ideal for human inhabitation. (It's cold and dark half of the year, etc.) This leads to depression.

Japan, though, is a wealthy nation, and the weather is relatively comfortable. (outside of typhoons! Ack!) The main reason for suicide, in my non-professional opinion (self-admittedly, I have no background in psychology outside of a 101 course in uni, which means next to nothing) in Japan are the result of not fulfilling some cultural (read group) expectations. Suicide letters are a great source for reasons, but not everyone leaves a note.

I didn't know about the "falling ill" information though. It's an interesting result. I remember reading the results of an American survey about the number one fear of the population being giving a speech in front of a public audience, which people feared even over death. So they would literally rather die than face a crowd of people listening to what they have to say.
Last edited by Ezrach on Sat 09.23.2006 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Japanese Identity and The Group.

Postby Infidel » Sun 09.24.2006 1:00 am

Tspoonami wrote:
Tessen wrote:
tip: any sort of generalization is bound to lead to problems.

All people who generalize are stupid.


Witty.
Last edited by Infidel on Sun 09.24.2006 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
なるほど。
さっぱりわからん。
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RE: Japanese Identity and The Group.

Postby Oyaji » Sun 09.24.2006 11:19 pm

Let's see here.

Is Japan a group oriented society?
Yes (Japanese Culture 101)

Does the average Japanese worker identify with his work group?
Yes (Japanese Culture 101)

Do Japanese people sometimes find themselves in situations where they are called upon to do something that goes against their personal beliefs?
Sometimes (Life 101)

Does this cause internal conflict which they find stressful?
Of course (common sense 101)

Do you think Japan is returning to an existence under the rule of an emperor, or an imperial-like figure?

No, and jumping to this extreme question with no logical connection made your post seem ridiculous and invited the kinds of responses you received.

There are few responses here because I notice that many people are apologists, and it's hard to come to terms with Japan not being some sort of heaven on Earth.


I found that quite interesting, and wondered if you would care to elaborate, providing specific examples.
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RE: Japanese Identity and The Group.

Postby Ezrach » Mon 09.25.2006 9:25 am

Ahh, Oyaji. I didn't think that you were that simple of a person. You disappoint me.

Node 1. Which of the groups does the Japanese identity lie in? (In some countries family is more important, in some countries the nation is more important)

Node 2. If it lies in 'nation' (which I think it does, especially historically) at what point would the average person speak out against the country? (Assimilation is a major factor in Japan, sticking out is very bad. Remember the saying, "The nail that sticks out will be hammered down.")

Node 3. [APPENDED information] Apparently no one here is aware that there are currently talks going on within the government regarding the re-militarization of Japan, following N. Korea's test missiles and a dissatisfaction with America's defense. (See node 2, "speaking out against the country")

Node 4. If power is once again invested into the military (which explicitly breaches the terms agreed upon from the unconditional surrender of Japan at the end of WWII), power being restored to the emperor isn't far off either. (Especially given Japan's arrest of attention given to anything imperial - like having a baby boy...)

Node 5. [Further expansion!] Let's look at recent events - Takeshima. *dun Dun DUN* The Japanese sending a maritime "research vessel" on the heels of heated debate over the possession of the islands doesn't seem like "cooperating with your neighbors". Imagine a militarized Japan sends a convoy of "researchers" to Takeshima. What does this insinuate about Japan's stance on foreign relations?

"Logical connection 101"

(Note: On apologists - basically any closed thread regarding Nanjing is evidence enough. But, it wasn't the point of this thread, and perhaps I went overboard when reading the overboard-responses I initially received. For myself having gone overboard, I apologize.)
Last edited by Ezrach on Mon 09.25.2006 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Japanese Identity and The Group.

Postby Oyaji » Mon 09.25.2006 10:46 am

If you have a specific point to make, it would make things a lot easier for everyone if you would just make it, and stop with the sophomoric circumlocutions.

Yes, the Japanese would be a lot better off if they had kept better tabs on those in authority through the years, but letting those in charge *be in charge* has been ingrained for many generations. The growing number of scandals in recent years has resulted in a greater call for accountability, and much more openness in government. I do a lot of government related work, and the changes have been dramatic. If anything the Japanese people are less likely to be duped by their leaders than in the past.

Although Mr. Abe is popular personally, there is a large degree of concern about some of his positions, particularly regarding defense. I don't think he will get his way quite as easily as Mr. Koizumi did.

Mr. Abe speaks of returning pride to the Japanese people, but he seems to have forgotten that most Japanese people take pride in Japan being a nation of peace. I don' think the Japanese people will forget quite as quickly.

Is it possible that your view of events in Japan is being influenced by the Korean news media?


Edit: Referring to Keatonatron's post below: I am never going to post again so that I can forever haunt you all with my evil presence. Or at least until my most recent post disappears into the back logs. Or until I feel like my wisdom is needed. Or I feel like posting again. Beware the mark.

Edit Edit: Well that certainly lasted long. ;)
Last edited by Oyaji on Mon 09.25.2006 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Japanese Identity and The Group.

Postby Ezrach » Mon 09.25.2006 11:57 am

Oyaji wrote:
Is it possible that your view of events in Japan is being influenced by the Korean news media?


Nah. I don't speak any Korean (besides the perfunctory "hello", "goodbye", "I'm hungry" type stuff), and all of my news comes from BBC. I personally feel that Koreans take the Takeshima/Dokdo ordeal immoderately. (There are kids that walk around with "Dokdo is ours!" t-shirts, and all I can think is, "What lousy parents.") My wife (Korean, fluent in Japanese) and the rest of her family are moderate, my wife and I speak exclusively in Japanese to eachother (she doesn't speak English well, and the same goes for my Korean), and my sister-in-law's husband is Japanese (and they live in Japan and are raising two Japanese children, my nephews - they didn't even bother getting them Korean citizenship as well). So, I don't think there is any hyper-Korean nationalism at play.
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RE: Japanese Identity and The Group.

Postby AJBryant » Mon 09.25.2006 11:59 am

(Especially given Japan's arrest of attention given to anything imperial - like having a baby boy...)


Dude, Japan grinds to a halt when a whale swims up a river or a seal shows up under a bridge.

Get a grip.


Tony
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RE: Japanese Identity and The Group.

Postby keatonatron » Mon 09.25.2006 12:14 pm

Ahh, Oyaji. I didn't think that you were that simple of a person. You disappoint me.


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You should be careful what you say to the devil-poster! :o
Last edited by keatonatron on Mon 09.25.2006 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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