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Important points when writing in Japanese

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RE: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby panz » Sun 10.01.2006 10:01 am

this's a useful thread.
thanks all
i love this site ^_^
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RE: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby Mike Cash » Sun 10.01.2006 10:10 am

babybluejackets wrote:

How ironic...
I found your post to be not only rude, but a bit agrrogant.


But did it look igrronant?
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RE: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby babybluejackets » Sun 10.01.2006 10:23 am

ooo... a typo. :o I think I'll leave it as is. Thanks. B)

I didn't take the post personal because, at the time this thread was created, I wasn't a memeber of this forum. But that still doesn't change the rudeness of it.
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RE: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby Mike Cash » Sun 10.01.2006 1:57 pm

So it was brusque.....so what?
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RE: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby Infidel » Sun 10.01.2006 2:08 pm

I wasn't a memeber of this forum. But that still doesn't change the rudeness of it.




I think the problem is differing standards of polite speech. In most cases I've seen, the ones pointing fingers for rudeness are just arrogantly proclaiming their standards to be higher than the other's. Which is pretty rude if you think about it.

I really don't think being sensitive or PC has helped this world at all. It is my firm belief that it is human nature to get offended by at least 5% of all human interaction. Having people walk on eggshells to avoid offending others won't change peopel's basic nature. Thus, when everyone starts bending over backwards to avoid offending, it only changes the standards of offensive behavior, not the frequency of taking offense.

Going around babying people and coddling them like infants only makes them cry out in anger when someone takes away the swaddling cloth and makes them interact with other adults.

I sincerely hope I offended as many people as I possibly could with this letter. Anyone not offended is probably assuming I'm talking to you, and not them.
Last edited by Infidel on Sun 10.01.2006 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
なるほど。
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RE: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby keatonatron » Sun 10.01.2006 2:46 pm

babybluejackets wrote:
You know do know there are polite and rude English speaking rules as well, right?

How ironic...
I found your post to be not only rude, but a bit agrrogant. There are better ways to phrase what you said without coming off as rude and demanding.

Nevertheless, I guess it was informative.


Was this pointed at me???

Politeness in Japanese is an EXTREMELY important subject. Therefore, a certain amount of assertiveness is required to make people understand just how important it is. If you think I was rude and demanding, then you can ignore my advice (that's all it is, really), and go get yourself beat up in Japan by offending someone with the way you speak. ;)
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RE: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby paul_b » Wed 10.04.2006 4:32 am

keatonatron wrote:
babybluejackets wrote:
You know do know there are polite and rude English speaking rules as well, right?

How ironic...
I found your post to be not only rude, but a bit agrrogant. There are better ways to phrase what you said without coming off as rude and demanding.

Nevertheless, I guess it was informative.


Was this pointed at me???


I'll just be calling you 'Mike' from now on.
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RE: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby Matsumoto_hideto » Sun 10.29.2006 8:36 pm

keatonatron wrote:
Here are some important things to keep in mind when writing Japanese on this forum. This is a mental list I have compiled while reading people's posts and Japanese practice.

Point one: Kanji

Do not greet everyone with "今日は".
Kanji is cool. We all want to use kanji because it looks more smart. IME is great, because you don't have to know how to write the kanji to use it. The problem is, there are some words that simply don't use kanji. One of them is こんにちは. Yes, an obscure reading of 今日 is "こんにち", but 99.9% of Japanese readers will see 今日 and think きょう. I can't count the times I've stumbled upon "今日は!" and thought "Today is... Today is what? What is this person saying about today? I'm so confused..."

The best rule is, only use kanji you know how to write. If you can't follow that, the next best rule is only use kanji you know how to read. If you can't do that, then you should at least only use kanji in a way you've seen it used before (by native Japanese writers). Since こんにちは is never written as "今日は", you should never make the mistake of misusing the kanji like this.

Other words that usually don't use kanji:
すごい
どこ
すぐ
なる
する
いる
ある
-みたい (looks like)
-てほしい


Point two: Politeness

In Japanese, an exremely important thing to learn is politeness levels. Many people think if they don't go to Japan, they don't need to worry about politeness. However, it's such an important part of the language and culture that you would be doing yourself a great injustice by overlooking it. Your friends probably wouldn't notice the difference, but when communicating with a Japanese person, your politeness levels will be very evident and can affect the relationship as such. I'm not even Japanese, but whenever I see the wrong politeness levels used it definately affects my feelings (i.e. when someone I thought was a close friend uses distanced speech, or someone I don't know at all speaks very informally, I feel a bit put off).

A quick overview:
-- Friends: In e-mails and MSN conversations with friends, informal/plain form is fine. Feel free to use any slang or contractions you want.

あのさぁ、昨日けんちゃんが俺んちに来たんだよ。

-- Acquaintances: In e-mails and MSN conversations with people you don't really know (i.e. penpals, people you met on this site, etc.) you need to speak politely. Even if you feel like you have a very friendly relationship, this politeness is very important. Keigo (very polite speech) is usually only learned by advanced students, but that fact is known by just about everyone :D Just using the polite form and choosing humble words will go a long way.

こんにちは。最近元気でしたか?今日学校が休みでしたから、私は友達と遊びました。

-- Public: When posting messages on this forum, you are addressing the public (i.e. the whole world). We are all friends here, and the highest form of keigo you can throw together is very much an overkill, but speaking informally, like you would to a close friend, is inappropriate. As I sort of mentioned before, I have often come accross posts by people I haven't heard from before, directed at everyone, using informal speech. Reading these makes me think "I don't know you, why are you talking down to me? You must not have much experience speaking Japanese." Aside from making people enjoy your writings more, speaking more politely will make your Japanese abilities appear much more skillful. The writing style for this is very similar to #2.

When addressing the public, do not refer to yourself as 俺(ore).

Posting a message on the forum directed at someone you know well and are on an "informal" basis with requires a combination of the forms above. You are still communicating in a public domain, which means informal speech is inappropriate. Formal speech (like #2) is fine, but if you want to convey informality, do so with caution. It is possible to mix forms, but learning how to do so takes some experience. Adding a little bit of formality to the informal makes it good enough for the public, but soft enough for your friend.

私もそう思います!とても面白い。Tonyも説明してくれない?楽しみに待ってます。

For a good example of how to address the public, pay attention to the way Pipin and Coco address various people.

(PipinさんとCocoさん:皆はPさんとCさんのポストに正しい丁寧さを習えると思います。恥ずかしかったら、ごめんなさい!今からも、普通に書いてください)



Actually Im gonna have to take u up on some of those.


Sugoi especially. here in japan ive seen a lot of variety TV shows use Kanji For Sugoi and Kawaii things like that.
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All things appear and disappear because of the concurrence of causes and conditions. Nothing ever exists entirely alone; everything is in relation to everything else.
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RE: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby Oyaji » Sun 10.29.2006 9:12 pm

Matsumoto_Hideto - When quoting from someone's post, you can delete everything that isn't pertinent to the point you want to make. Your post would be easier to understand if you had quoted only the parts dealing with your objections.

As to "sugoi", you are absolutely right: It is occasionally written in kanji. However, the original post said: "Other words that usually don't use kanji". *Usually* being the operative word. In normal writing, すごい is usually written in hiragana.

The point is, learning when and where to use kanji is just as important as learning the kanji itself.
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RE: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby datdo » Sun 10.29.2006 10:01 pm

I don't know why but it would be easy to imagine MikeCash saying お前...not to be mean or anything...aaa don't verbally attack me *cringes in fear*


magma wrote:"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger"?


whoever said that also probably doesn't have FOP. I know a kid who has it and hes not any stronger from it...actually well you could say that having your connective tissue turn to bone does make you stronger but he's starting to have problems moving...
Last edited by datdo on Sun 10.29.2006 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby Mike Cash » Mon 10.30.2006 12:56 am

datdo wrote:
I don't know why but it would be easy to imagine MikeCash saying お前...not to be mean or anything...aaa don't verbally attack me *cringes in fear*


That's a reasonable assumption. Why would I get mad?

For the record, though, I almost never say お前. I actively discourage its use in my home.
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RE: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby keatonatron » Mon 10.30.2006 1:01 am

paul_b wrote:
I'll just be calling you 'Mike' from now on.


I'm not sure what part of that makes me a Mike, but when you write a long article for purely informative purposes, and someone gets offended and says you're arrogant, it can be kind of a shock.
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RE: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby Infidel » Mon 10.30.2006 2:13 am

datdo wrote:
I don't know why but it would be easy to imagine MikeCash saying お前...not to be mean or anything...aaa don't verbally attack me *cringes in fear*


magma wrote:"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger"?


whoever said that also probably doesn't have FOP. I know a kid who has it and hes not any stronger from it...actually well you could say that having your connective tissue turn to bone does make you stronger but he's starting to have problems moving...


FOP apparently does kill you eventually, thus it doesn't disprove the axiom.
The disease is usually fatal as bone crushes the internal organs.
なるほど。
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RE: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby datdo » Mon 10.30.2006 11:12 am

Infidel wrote:
FOP apparently does kill you eventually, thus it doesn't disprove the axiom.


Well...if the kid's dad basically runs a company and makes lots a money, he can afford to for a normal length life.
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RE: Important points when writing in Japanese

Postby Rounin T » Mon 10.30.2006 4:29 pm

keatonatron wrote:
paul_b wrote:
I'll just be calling you 'Mike' from now on.


I'm not sure what part of that makes me a Mike, but when you write a long article for purely informative purposes, and someone gets offended and says you're arrogant, it can be kind of a shock.

I think you mean agrrogant. There's a difference. Arrogant people look down their noses at the surrounding peons. Agrrogant people are forever doomed to be scorned for their attempts to be helpful.
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