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で=です?

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で=です?

Postby Jobo » Wed 06.22.2005 12:01 am

Just checking... I heard use it, but I'd never heard it before then. I'd heard だ as a way to shorten it, but never で. So, correct me if I'm wrong, just want to check.
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RE: で=です?

Postby Harisenbon » Wed 06.22.2005 5:20 am

で is not the same as です. だ is the correct shortening of です.

Or so I believe.
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RE: で=です?

Postby jinksys » Wed 06.22.2005 5:23 am

DESU does not equal DE. DESU is a polite copula meaning "to be" or "is", and DA is the plain or casual version of it. DE is a partical that basically implies where an action occurs. It can also mark by what means something occurs, like the english words "with/using/by mean of--". So, DESU is polite, DA is casual, DE is not DESU or DA.
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RE: で=です?

Postby InsanityRanch » Wed 06.22.2005 5:23 pm

Not sure of the context.

If you want to join two clauses, you can use "de" instead of "da" or "desu" -- Ex: 私は日本人で英語の使い方ははっきりとわからない。 (I'm Japanese and I don't entirely understand English usage.)


Is that what you are talking about?

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RE: で=です?

Postby Jobo » Wed 06.22.2005 9:46 pm

It's possible I misheard, I supposed. The guy said, "アメリカ人が好きで。" Perhaps I merely misheard, though.

EDIT: And I am aware of its use as a particle, as well.
Last edited by Jobo on Wed 06.22.2005 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: で=です?

Postby Harisenbon » Wed 06.22.2005 10:38 pm

The す is です is often slurred and hard to hear. he probably said アメリカ人が好きです, but the last す just couldn't be heard. You can't really use で at the end of a sentence like that.

If you can, I can't think of a time off the top of my head.
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RE: で=です?

Postby Mukade » Sat 06.25.2005 3:54 am

Jobo wrote:
It's possible I misheard, I supposed. The guy said, "アメリカ人が好きで。" Perhaps I merely misheard, though.

EDIT: And I am aware of its use as a particle, as well.


As InsanityRanch explained, で can take the place of です in instances where you want to connect two short phrases. It implies a sort of causal relationship between the two, however (which です alone does not). So instead of:
英語が好きです。アメリカへ行きたいです。
I like English. I want to go to America.

You could say:
英語が好きで、アメリカへ行きたいです.
(Because <- this is implied) I like English, I want to go to America.
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RE: で=です?

Postby sampaguita » Sat 06.25.2005 7:44 am

で is the -te form of です。 It's used in connecting sentences and -na adjectives to other adjectives. Although I think that you can "end" a sentence by "de" (some sentences end in the -te form when people want to make a hanging sentence [e.g., Hon wo karitai to omoimashite...]), I've never heard it used. だ is the plain form of です。
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RE: で=です?

Postby Harisenbon » Sat 06.25.2005 8:16 am

You could say:
英語が好きで、アメリカへ行きたいです.
(Because <- this is implied) I like English, I want to go to America.


Actually, this is wrong. You can't use で here

英語が好きだからアメリカに行きたい。 Is correct.
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RE: で=です?

Postby Mukade » Sun 06.26.2005 8:15 am

Harisenbon wrote:
You could say:
英語が好きで、アメリカへ行きたいです.
(Because <- this is implied) I like English, I want to go to America.


Actually, this is wrong. You can't use で here

英語が好きだからアメリカに行きたい。 Is correct.


No, it is not wrong. It is a matter of nuance.

「英語が好きだからアメリカに行きたい」would imply direct causal relation between the first and second clause. I.e, "Because I like English, I want to go to America."

On the other hand, 「英語が好きで、アメリカへ行きたいです」implies a weak causal relationship between the first and second clause: "I like English and (because of that, amongst other things) I want to go to America."

「〜から、〜です」is more equivalent to the English "Because of X, Y," whereas 「〜で、〜です』would more closely resemble "X, and (so) Y."
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RE: で=です?

Postby Harisenbon » Sun 06.26.2005 8:53 am

I am now placed in the middle of an argument between you and the wife, who is trying to find a place where you can use the で in 英語が好きで、アメリカへ行きたいですand have it not sound wierd.

Are you sure you're right about that? I've never heard of it, but there are a lot of things I don't know. My wife is a bit more confident in her knowledge of Japanese, though. ;)

Could it be 方言?

I'm actually really curious about this now... =) Can you cite any sources? I couldn't find any reference in the Genius ?p dictionary.
Last edited by Harisenbon on Sun 06.26.2005 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: で=です?

Postby Mukade » Sun 06.26.2005 9:44 pm

I take it your wife is Japanese? If so, then her knowledge of Japanese is intuitive rather than encyclopedic. Similarly, we have a "feel" for certain things in English without knowing the hows and whys of it. I would imagine her intuitive knowledge of Japanese is telling her this sentence is wrong. Technically, though, it is correct. I think the feeling of "wrong" comes from the fact that it is an unusual usage.

This pattern of Aで、Bです。 does not get used too often, and when it does, it tends to be used to indicate a weak causal relation between Natural Result B and Uncontrollable Event A. For example:
山下さんは病気で、休みました。
Since Yamashita was ill, he took the day off.

Most Japanese, I think, wouldn't say it like this. Rather, you'd probably hear:
山下さんは病気なので〜 or 山下さんは病気だったから〜

Like I said, this isn't a grammatical form that gets used often, but in Jobo's example of 「アメリカ人が好きで」 it would be a possibility.

In the same way, I overheard the following recently:
"Has Bob got his camera?"
"Yes, he has."

Now, this just sounds really strange to me. If it were me speaking, I would say something like:
"Does Bob got his camera?"
"Yes, he does."
But when I looked it up, sure enough it's proper English.
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RE: で=です?

Postby Harisenbon » Sun 06.26.2005 10:44 pm

Hmm.. Interesting. I'm definately going to use this as a quiz for my students and japanese friends from now on. I'm always curious about how much natives don't understand their own language. If you're into that as well, I suggest the book 問題な日本語. It's got a lot of examples of commonly used phrases that are grammatically wrong, and more interestingly rare phrases that everyone thinks are wrong, but are actually grammatically correct.

By the way, with your english examples, I'm the complete opposite.
"Has Bob got his camera" sounds completely natural to me (although grammatically wonky), while "Does Bob got his camera" would get a big ole X through it on my student's paper. ;) "Does Bob have his camera?" would be the most correct, in my opinion.

*glee*

These converestaions are actually the reason I joined this board. I love tiny little niggling things about langauge.:D
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RE: で=です?

Postby Harisenbon » Sun 06.26.2005 10:45 pm

By the way, is the Japanese in the last two posts showing up strange for you? For some reason, I can read the Japanese in every post but the last two. They get really garbeled for some reason.
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RE: mojibake oops!

Postby zengargoyle » Sun 06.26.2005 10:47 pm

Mukade wrote:
...
R コさんは a Cで A xみました B
R コさんは a Cなので ` or R コさんは a Cだったから `
u A J lが Dきで v
...


gomen. i've been sending patches to Clay to work around the characters that
wouldn't display... and this time around i made a typo that is really mucking things
up. i've sent a fixed patch so everything should be back to normal sometime soon.
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