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里見八犬伝 一巻

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里見八犬伝 一巻

Postby richvh » Sun 11.05.2006 2:09 pm

So I picked up an ebook of the first volume of 里見八犬伝, which is sort of the Reader's Digest version of the massive early-19th century epic 南総里見八犬伝, rewritten in modern language and orthography. It's a challenging read, but I'm getting the gist of it. I just have a couple of questions left on the first paragraph:

 京都にすむ室町幕府六代将軍足利義教と、関東管領ににんじられ、鎌倉にすむ足利持氏とのあいだに、不和が生じた。持氏が自立のこころざしをいだいたからである。義教の軍と、それを支持する持氏の家来上杉憲実が合体し、持氏とその嫡子義成をせめた。持氏父子に利あらず、鎌倉の報国寺におしこめられ、ついに父子は詰腹をきらされた。

Conflict arose between Ashikaga Yoshinori, the sixth Shogun of the Muromachi Shogunate, who lived in Kyoto, and Ashikaga Mochiuji, who had been appointed governor of Kantou and lived in Kamakura. This was because Muromachi was suspected of a desire to become independent. Yoshinori's army, joined by Mochiuji's vassal Uesugi Norizane who supported him, attacked Mochiuji and his eldest son Yoshinari. Taken by surprise, Mochiuji and his son were imprisoned in Kamakura's Houkokuji Temple, and finally forced to commit seppuku.

Questions: 六代, is this read ろくだい?
Was Mochiuji imprisoned or beseiged in the temple? How is the temple usually referred to in English? Houkoku Temple? Houkokuji? Houkokuji Temple?
Am I interpreting 利あらず correctly? How about 詰腹をきらされた?
Last edited by richvh on Mon 11.06.2006 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: 里見八犬伝 一巻

Postby Oyaji » Sun 11.05.2006 9:39 pm

That is quite the endeavor. :)

richvh wrote:
 Questions: 六代, is this read ろくだい?

Yes, 「ろくだい」 is correct.

Was Mochiuji imprisoned or beseiged in the temple?

My first instinct would be to translate it "forced into" or "driven into", but "imprisoned" does probably better express the overall meaning.

How is the temple usually referred to in English? Houkoku Temple? Houkokuji? Houkokuji Temple?

Generally, it would either be written "Hokokuji" or "Hokokuji Temple". The latter is, of course, redundant, but it maintains the original Japanese name while at the same time giving the English speaker a vital piece of information. Though technically most accurate, "Hokoku Temple" would normally not be used because the "ji" is considered part of the name in Japanese. At least that is my understanding. (I am using Hepburn romanization simply because that is how it would be written in most cases. I don't mean to imply that you should as well.)

Am I interpreting 利あらず correctly?

Perhaps "Taken at a disadvantage" or something along those lines would be better.

How about 詰腹をきらされた?

That looks good. I suppose you could go entirely with English and say, "They were forced to disembowel themselves.", but "seppuku" does look better. ;)

Good luck in your reading, and keep asking questions. They benefit all of us.
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RE: 里見八犬伝 一巻

Postby richvh » Sun 11.05.2006 11:14 pm

A few more paragraphs transcribed, a few more questions:
 後花園天皇の永享処齡N(一四三九年)二月藷?フことである。持氏には、嫡子義成のほか二男春王・三男安王がいる。この春王・安王の二子は、かろうじて義教・憲実がたの目をのがれて、下総の国におちのびた。この地を持氏の家来結城氏朝が所領していたからである。
That was on the tenth of February in the eleventh year of the Eikyou era, that is, the reign of Emperor Gohanazoku, which the Christians call 1439. Besides his heir Yoshinari, Mochiuji also had Haruou, his second son, and Yasuou, his third son. These two children, barely escaping the notice of Yoshinori and Norizane, fled to the land of Shimousa. This land was the fief of Mochiuji's vassal Yuuki Ujitomo.
 儀にあつい氏朝は、春王・安王を主君としてむかえた。さらに京都の義教の命をこばみ、その配下の清方、持朝の大軍がせめてきても、ものともせずにむかえうった。
The deeply loyal Ujitomo accepted Haruou and Yasuou as his masters. Furthermore, he defied the command of Kyoto's Yoshinori, and even when Yoshinori's vassals Kiyokata and Mochitomo came to attack with a huge army, he ambushed them in defiance.
 その合戦のしらせをきき、持氏と縁のある里見季基をはじめとする武士たちが、死を辞さず、結城勢のこもる城にかけさんじてくれた。結城勢は京都側の大軍にかこまれながらも、落城の気配はなかった。
Upon hearing the news of this battle, Mochiuji's relative Satomi Suemoto, whose warriors were not afraid to die, gave them refuge in the secluded castle Ketsujousei. Even when Kyoto's huge army surrounded Ketsujousei, there was no danger of its surrender.
 そうしてその年の春のころから、嘉吉元年(一四四一年)の四月まで、三年間にわたって篭城をつづけた。しかし、ほかに援軍もなく、兵糧も矢だねも尽き果ててしまった。
And thus, from the spring of that year until April of the first year of the Kakitsu era, which the Christians call 1441, three years passed with the siege continuing. However, without any reinforcements, finally the supplies of food and arrows were exhausted.

Questions: Is Shinousa the correct reading for the 国 the children fled to? Was it Ujitomo doing the ambushing when the huge army came? The paragraph where Satomi Suemoto is introduced confuses me, so I've probably completely messed it up. Have I correctly interpreted Ketsujousei as the name of the castle, and is the reading correct? I have no idea what かけさんじて means, so that part is purely guesswork. Have I correctly guessed that 篭城 means a siege? Any problems I overlooked?
Last edited by richvh on Mon 11.06.2006 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: 里見八犬伝 一巻

Postby Schattenjedi » Sun 11.05.2006 11:41 pm

下総 is read しもうさ. If 篭城=籠城, then it means to be besieged. Don't know about your other questions.
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RE: 里見八犬伝 一巻

Postby richvh » Sun 11.05.2006 11:48 pm

下総 is read しもうさ.

You're right, I did mess up the second mora, but enamdict also lists しもふさ as a reading, with both being place names.
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RE: 里見八犬伝 一巻

Postby Schattenjedi » Sun 11.05.2006 11:57 pm

richvh wrote:
下総 is read しもうさ.

You're right, I did mess up the second mora, but enamdict also lists しもふさ as a reading, with both being place names.


I believe that's just the old orthography. ふ in place of う.

Goo's entry
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RE: 里見八犬伝 一巻

Postby AJBryant » Mon 11.06.2006 2:29 am

So I picked up an ebook of the first volume of 里見八犬伝


Bravo!!! Great book. I used to fantasize about working on a translation of it...

結城勢 is "Yuukizei (the military strength of the Yuuki)" and refers to Yuki no Ujitomo (結城氏朝).

The original is 「。。。辛く敵軍の囲を説れて、下総へ落ち合ふを、結城氏朝迎(へ)とりて、主君と仰ぎ奉り、京都の武命に従はず,管領の大軍をも屑とせず。」

I have no idea what かけさんじて means


Are you sure it's not けさんじてくれた ?

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RE: 里見八犬伝 一巻

Postby coco » Mon 11.06.2006 6:07 am

かけさんじて =駆け参じて 

「駆ける+参じる」の複合動詞だと思います。
「馬を速く走らせて、(そこに)到着/参加する」の謙譲語。
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RE: 里見八犬伝 一巻

Postby richvh » Mon 11.06.2006 10:05 am

Tony wrote:
Are you sure it's not さけさんじてくれた ?

Absotively posilutely. I did find a typo I'd made in the next paragraph: the first word is こうして, not そうして.

So, with the hints from Tony and coco, I guess that troublesome paragraph is more like:

Upon hearing the news of this battle, Mochiuji's kinsman Satomi Suemoto, whose warriors had from the beginning not been afraid to die, rode to join the might of the Yuuki in the castle where they had secluded themselves. Even when Kyoto's huge army surrounded the castle, such was the might of the Yuuki that there was no danger of its surrender.
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RE: 里見八犬伝 一巻

Postby Oyaji » Mon 11.06.2006 11:29 am

持氏と縁のある里見季基をはじめとする武士たちが、死を辞さず、結城勢のこもる城にかけさんじてくれた。結城勢は京都側の大軍にかこまれながらも、落城の気配はなかった。

「〜をはじめとする」 is a little problematic, because it doesn't mean the person is necessarily the leader, but rather is the most noteworthy representative of the group. I might translate it:

Upon hearing news of this battle, warriors, including Mochiuji's kinsman Satomi Suemoto, having no fear of death, rode to join Yuki Ujitomo's forces in the castle where they had secluded themselves. Though they were surrounded by the huge army from Kyoto, it didn't seem that Yuki's forces would lose the castle.
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RE: 里見八犬伝 一巻

Postby richvh » Mon 11.06.2006 11:56 am

How about this?

Upon hearing news of this battle, Mochiuji's kinsman Satomi Suemoto was in the forefront of those warriors who, not fearing death, rode to join Yuuki's forces etc.
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RE: 里見八犬伝 一巻

Postby richvh » Mon 11.06.2006 5:42 pm

A few more paragraphs...

「いまや、のがれるみちはない。もろとも死ぬのみ」と、結城一族、里見の主従は覚悟をきめた。城門をひらき、うってでた。結城がたの兵どものしかばねの山がきずかれた。そして、城はここに落ちたのである。
"Now, there is no way to escape. There is nothing left but for us to die," the entire Yuuki clan, and their Satomi vassals decided. Opening the castle gates, they sallied forth. Yuuki was buried under a mountain of warrior corpses. In like manner, the defenders of the castle fell one by one.
 春王・安王はとらえられ、美濃の垂井で首をはねられ、ぞくにいう結城合戦の幕はとじた。
Haruou and Yasuou were captured and beheaded at Mino no Tarui, and that is commonly said to be the final curtain on the Battle of Yuuki.
 落城ま近とさっした里見季基は、自分の嫡子義実の姿をさがした。
Sensing that the fall of the castle was near, Satomi Suemoto searched for sight of his heir, Yoshizane.
 義実はこのころ暑纃ホで、又太郎と名のっていた。義実は、父季基とともに三年のあいだ篭城し、たたかっていた。この日も義実は敵の兵庶l、五騎をきり、さらに敵本陣にすすもうとしていた。季基はこれをよびとめて声をかけた。
Yoshizane was at that time 19 years old, and called himself Matatarou. Yoshizane had been with his father Suemoto throughout the three years of siege and battles. On this day also, Yoshizane had slain 14 or 15 enemy warriors, and furthermore was trying to reach the enemy stronghold. Suemoto called out for him to stop.
「とどまれ、義実。父子ともに討死したら、どうする。先祖への不孝は、これにすぐるものはない。将軍家を敵として、持氏どの、氏朝どのにそむかず、これだけのはたらきにおよべば、いきおいつき、ちからきわまって落城にいたっても、わたしが節義のために死に、子のおまえが里見家のためにのがれても恥ではない。ここからすみやかにのがれて、時節をまち、里見家の再興をはかるのだ。これこそおまえのつとめだ」
"Stop, Yoshizane. If both father and son die in battle together, what would happen? There is no greater way to show disrespect to our ancestors than this. If so many things have befallen to make us the enemies of the Shogun's family without defying Lord Mochiuji and Lord Ujitomo, even though our force is spent and our power exhausted, and the castle is about to fall, still I must die to preserve my honor, and so that you my son may escape without dishonor for the sake of the Satomi clan. Quickly escape from here, and wait for the time when you can revive the Satomi clan. This is certainly your duty."
 義実は、馬の鞍の上で頭を低くし、
「お話は、うけたまわりました。しかし父親の討死するのを眼前に見て、おめおめとのがれることは、三歳の童子にもできることではありません。わたしは武士の家にうまれ、すでに暑纃ホになります。文武の道をおさめ、その両道のなにごとかをぞんじているつもりです。このまま冥土におつれください。死ぬべきところで死ぬことができずに、笑いものとなり、名をけがし、先祖をはずかしめることはできませぬ」とこたえた。
Yoshizane hung his head as he sat in his saddle, and replied "I have heard your story. But to see my father die in battle before my eyes, and then to run away in disgrace, is something not even a 3 year old could do. I was born into a warrior family, and I have already reached 19 years of age. I have studied the arts of the pen and the sword, and I believe that I know something of both of them. Please lead me to the land of the dead. If I can not die, I shall become a laughingstock, our name will be besmirched, and our ancestors put to shame."
 季基は、自分の息子義実の頭をつくづくとみた。こころのなかでたのもしくおもったが、阜サはしきりに嘆息していった。
Suemoto carefully examined the face of his own son Yoshizane. Deep in his heart were hopeful thoughts, but outwardly he showed nothing but grief.
「義実、わしはおまえに頭をそって出家せよ、といっているのではない。時節をまち、家を再興せよ、といっているのだ。おまえも知っているように、足利持氏どのはむかしからの主君ではない。わが先祖は、一族にあたる新田義貞どのにしたがって、元弘・建武の役に戦功をたてたものだ。そののち、わが父里見元義は持氏どのの父君足利満兼どのにまねかれて、つかることとなった。で、わしも、持氏どのに出仕することになったまでだ。しかも、春王・安王の二君のため死ぬ。こころざしはこれですんだのだ。これらの理義をわきまえないで、ただ死するのみでは武士とはいわぬ。学問をしたかいもあるまい。こうまでもうしてもわからなければ、親でもなく、子でもない」
"Yoshizane, I am not saying that you should shave your head and enter a monastery. I am saying that you should bide your time until you can revive our house. As you know, Ashikaga Mochiuji was not always our overlord. Our ancestor accompanied Nitta Yoshisada as an equal, and distinguished himself in the struggle between the Genkou and Kenmu Courts. After that, my father, Satomi Motoyoshi, was invited by Lord Mochiuji's father Lord Ashikaga Mitsukane to serve under him. I, also, served Lord Mochiuji. Moreover, I will die for Lords Haruou and Yasuou. Our obligations end there. Dying is not the only part of being a samurai. You must not have been studying enough. If you do not understand me now, I am not your father, and you are not my son."

I found all three speeches challenging, so I probably messed up on parts of them.
Specific questions: the death of Yuuki. I have a feeling I may have messed that up a bit. Should it be more like "Yuuki fell after building a mountain of warrior corpses", or does Yuuki here mean the whole clan rather than Ujitomo?
Mino no Tarui: am I correct in interpreting that as a place name? My first impulse was to treat it as a person's name, but after further thought I rejected that, because of the imbedded の.
Suemoto's first speech: the whole long, convoluted sentence starting 将軍家 confuses me. How did I do on it?
Yoshizane's speech: I'm not sure about the last sentence. That last ことはできませぬ seems to throw off my understanding of the rest of it.
Suemoto's second speech: 一族にあたる confuses me, as does the つかることとなった bit and the 学問をしたかいもあるまい bit.
Last edited by richvh on Tue 11.07.2006 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: 里見八犬伝 一巻

Postby AJBryant » Mon 11.06.2006 8:06 pm

Garf!! I dropped a post! Sigh. It was so long and lovely... <whimper>

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RE: 里見八犬伝 一巻

Postby coco » Mon 11.06.2006 11:03 pm

漢字があった方が却って分かりやすいと思いますので付け足します。

引用文:結城がたの兵どものしかばねの山がきずかれた。
漢字_:結城方の兵共の屍の山が築かれた。
解釈_:結城軍勢の兵たちの屍が(まるで)山のように築かれた。


「美濃の垂井」は地名です。

引用文:これらの理義をわきまえないで、ただ死するのみでは武士とはいわぬ。
漢字_:これらの理義を弁えないで、ただ死するのみでは武士とは言わぬ。
解釈_:これらの道理を弁えないで、ただ死ぬだけでは、武士であるとは言えない。

引用文:学問をしたかいもあるまい。
漢字_:学問をした甲斐もあるまい。
解釈_:学問をした甲斐も、ないだろう。

つかることとなった。
つかることとなった。
(仕えることとなった。)

以下は単なる打ち間違いだと思いますが…。

名をがし
名を穢し >穢す

足利持氏どのはかしからの主君ではない。
足利持氏どのはむかしからの主君ではない。
(足利持氏殿は昔からの主君ではない。)

私の英語力に問題があるせいかもしれませんが、これ、合ってますか?
There is no greater way to show disrespect to our ancestors than this.
先祖への不孝は、これにすぐるものはない。
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RE: 里見八犬伝 一巻

Postby Oyaji » Mon 11.06.2006 11:16 pm

Rather than make comments about individual points, some nit-picky, some slight differences in interpretation, I think I will just write my version (using yours as a base), and you can compare and decide. It will be a little (a lot) on the *literal* side, so that the English matches the original as much as possible.

「いまや、のがれるみちはない。もろとも死ぬのみ」と、結城一族、里見の主従は覚悟をきめた。城門をひらき、うってでた。結城がたの兵どものしかばねの山がきずかれた。そして、城はここに落ちたのである。
Saying "At this point, there is no way to escape. There is nothing left but for us all to die together," the entire Yuki clan and the followers of Satomi accepted their fate. They opened the castle gate, and sallied forth. A mountain was formed from the dead bodies of the Yuki soldiers, and the castle fell.

春王・安王はとらえられ、美濃の垂井で首をはねられ、ぞくにいう結城合戦の幕はとじた。
Haruou and Yasuou were captured and beheaded at Mino no Tarui, and the final curtain fell on what is commonly called the Battle of Yuki.

義実は、父季基とともに三年のあいだ篭城し、たたかっていた。
Yoshizane had fought along with his father, Suemoto, defending the castle for three years.

将軍家を敵として、持氏どの、氏朝どのにそむかず、これだけのはたらきにおよべば、いきおいつき、ちからきわまって落城にいたっても、わたしが節義のために死に、子のおまえが里見家のためにのがれても恥ではない。
We have made enemies of the Shogun's family and remained faithful to Lord Mochiuji and Lord Ujitomo. Having performed our duties to this extent, though our force be spent and our power exhausted, and the castle fall, there would be no shame were I to die for the sake of honor, and were you, my son, to escape for the sake of the Satomi clan.

死ぬことができずに、笑いものとなり、名をかがし、先祖をはずかしめることはできませぬ。
Be unable to die, become a laughing stock, besmirch our name, and bring dishonor to our ancestors - I cannot do it.

こころのなかでたのもしくおもったが、阜サはしきりに嘆息していった。
Within his heart he felt reassured, but outwardly he showed nothing but grief.

わが先祖は、一族にあたる新田義貞どのにしたがって
Our ancestor accompanied Nitta Yoshisada, who was of the same clan,

学問をしたかいもあるまい。
Your studying has been for naught.



I believe the かい here is 甲斐.

Hope this is useful.

Edit: I see coco beat me to it, but I'll leave this as is. Hopefully you'll find it of some use.
Last edited by Oyaji on Tue 11.07.2006 5:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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