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Netiquettes

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RE: Netiquettes

Postby Infidel » Sun 11.26.2006 1:32 am

Well, in the sig anyway.
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RE: Netiquettes

Postby zengargoyle » Sun 11.26.2006 1:59 am

lol....

all i can think of is that abbreviations are ok when they are real abbreviations (or initialisms) for truly long phrases. "lol" for "laughing out loud" is much more acceptable than "u" for "you" or "2" for "to" or "b4" for "before". really, learn how to type and you'll find that you don't really need those sorts of abbreviation.

and really, in many cases i totally prefer "top-posting" over "bottom-posting". it's a royal pain in the *** to scroll down through quoted material that i've already read once before to get to the 'reply' part. and in everyday work email, i totally "top-post" and leave the quoted material at the bottom of the message just in case anybody cares to read it. this 'top' vs 'bottom' is about the only disagreement that i have with the ancient rules of netiquette. that and normal capitalization.. :)

on the other hand, the idea that an internet post should have the same thought put into it as any other essay or paper intendended for grading or publication is nonsense. if that were the case, there would never be any posts, or there would be a single post of a question, and the first couple posts of answers, and that would be it. totally serious writing of an answer might take hours or days to go through and check facts, make footnotes, rewrite and revise wording.... nothing would ever get done. so sure, give a good best effort while composing a reply, but don't fail to reply because you don't have the time to formulate a reply worthy of publication in some academic journal.

most important points... learn to type, learn to at least attempt to spell things correctly, i mean really, you can open another browser window and check an online dictionary in seconds.... try to follow the rules of grammar as best you can, and keep trying to learn and improve your writing. i don't care about the occasional typo, or occasional awkward grammar, and give great leeway for non-native speakers. but if i see a 'b4' or a 'u' in a post, my only thought is "lazy tard, ignore...".
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RE: Netiquettes

Postby Infidel » Sun 11.26.2006 2:08 am

and really, in many cases i totally prefer "top-posting" over "bottom-posting".


I think top or bottom is more determined by forum consensus than any particular ettiquitte. When in Rome...

One board I frequent specifies that everyone top posts, another everyone bottom posts. It comes back to my 50 post rule. Read at least 50 posts before posting, and follow the same procedures the "respectable" people follow.
Last edited by Infidel on Sun 11.26.2006 2:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Netiquettes

Postby arbalest71 » Sun 11.26.2006 9:08 am

Infidel wrote:
and really, in many cases i totally prefer "top-posting" over "bottom-posting".


I think top or bottom is more determined by forum consensus than any particular ettiquitte. When in Rome...


There are good reasons to not top post. It is not an arbitrary guideline. The subject of this thread is netiquette. Insulting people, or swearing, might or might not be bad net etiquette, depending on the forum. Top posting _is_ bad net etiquette, always. That was established well before the web existed, and arguing against that rule is not wise- top posting is wrong.

tanuki wrote:
Why comment on the OP's English all of a sudden?


I wouldn't normally, but when you write a post complaining about other people's usage... one that tells them, in no uncertain terms, what to do- you should be prepared for some backlash if that post is badly composed. I'm not afraid to tell people what to do myself (don't top post) but I'm not so sensitive that that sort of backlash bothers me.

zengargoyle wrote:and really, in many cases i totally prefer "top-posting" over "bottom-posting". it's a royal pain in the *** to scroll down through quoted material that i've already read once before to get to the 'reply' part.


That's why I also said "trim". I didn't make this up one day when I was bored... if you want a thread on netiquete, well... I don't care much if you insult my ancestry (par for the course) but you should recognize that there are well established norms that constitute "netiquette", and that they have little to do with being "polite". They are mostly procedural. Quoting and trimming properly really does help when posts nest in a threaded environment (unfortunately the average PHP board doesn't do threads, but that's no reason to throw caution to the wind)
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RE: Netiquettes

Postby Dehitay » Sun 11.26.2006 11:55 am

arbalest71 wrote:
Insulting people, or swearing, might or might not be bad net etiquette, depending on the forum.


Har har, you even said net etiquette instead of netiquette. Insulting people is always bad etiquitte, you poo poo head >=P
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RE: Netiquettes

Postby zengargoyle » Sun 11.26.2006 6:15 pm

arbalest71 wrote:
... but you should recognize that there are well established norms that constitute "netiquette", and that they have little to do with being "polite". They are mostly procedural.


correct, and close but not quite... the vast majority of the ancient netiquette standards came about because of the technology of the time. i was on the 'Net' twenty years ago and remember these things.

quoting rules came about because it used to take a week or more (and dozens of hops across various machines and connections) for a message to make it around the world and back to the sender. and in those days, most email and news readers did not have threading functionality that could be used to show the original message in an easy way. and on newsgroups, the original message might not even be available anymore. so quoting carried the context.

nowadays, this does not apply. messages go around the world and back almost instantly, email and news readers are quite capable of threading. so the environment that created the quoting rules no longer exists. if you wish to hark back to the historically established norms then you have a lot more to do....

no HTML in email, ever.
no lines longer than 72 characters. handle wrapping yourself.
no non-7bit characters.
never change the Subject of the reply except to add 'Re:' to the front.
usernames should be 8 characters or less.

times change, and rules should change as well. except for the using 'u' for 'you' parts. :)
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RE: Netiquettes

Postby Infidel » Sun 11.26.2006 9:01 pm

There are good reasons to not top post.


Then why are you bottom posting? Arguing the virtues of top posting, when bottom posting. okashii naa


It is not an arbitrary guideline. The subject of this thread is netiquette. Insulting people, or swearing, might or might not be bad net etiquette, depending on the forum. Top posting _is_ bad net etiquette, always.


I think your priorities are a trifle wacked. Even in forums that insults and swearing are accepted, it is still considered bad form.

That was established well before the web existed, and arguing against that rule is not wise- top posting is wrong.


What an amazing thing. Net etiquitte was established before the web existed.

I say bunk.
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RE: Netiquettes

Postby tanuki » Sun 11.26.2006 9:21 pm

Fishing nets, Infidel-san, fishing nets.

By the way, what's top-posting?

Infidel wrote:
What an amazing thing. Net etiquitte was established before the web existed.


( :D)
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RE: Netiquettes

Postby Infidel » Sun 11.26.2006 9:42 pm

:@

:D
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RE: Netiquettes

Postby zengargoyle » Sun 11.26.2006 9:52 pm

Infidel wrote:
What an amazing thing. Net etiquitte was established before the web existed.

I say bunk.


i'm trying to decide whether this is a scarcastic comment... "of course there was net etiquitte before the web." or whether it is denying that the 'net' existed before the web....

just in case... the first mention i've been able to quickly find with google concerning 'Net etiquitte' is from 1982.... http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc0850.txt

and yes Virginia, there was a 'net' before the web. it was the 'internet'. and yes, there was a 'net' before the internet, it was known as 'uunet'. and yes, there was a 'net' before uunet, known as ARPANET.

sadly, alot of the ancient posts are long lost.... maybe somebody somewhere has them on a 12inch tape backup that they can't find a tape-reader for.... i've searched and searched for some of my usenet posts from back in 1987 and they are long lost.... when dejanews first came on the scene it was a great day when somebody found an old backup tape that had some usenet posts from the 1990 era...

nevertheless, even back in 1987 in the news.newusers group, there was a weekly posting of "HOWTO: USENET Etiquette"... and you people have it good these days.... in 1987 if you posted spam somewhere, your network boss would get a couple hundred complaints, you would be called into an office somewhere and warned that if you *ever* did such a thing again you would have your access revoked. and if an institution didn't police their users, that institution faced the "USENET Death Penalty" which meant that other USENET sites would stop carrying their messages and they would be cut-off from the "Net". sadly, one day AOL came along and connected their users to the net and things have gone downhill ever since.... :)
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RE: Netiquettes

Postby Infidel » Mon 11.27.2006 6:35 pm

actually, I did know this, but web and internet are used synonymously so often that they can be hard to seperate during the very few times when they are not. So this isn't the first time I tripped over this. I think that part of the problem, is when I say web, I'm not refering to the world wide web, I'm refering to the interweb. :)

Especially when I was originally refering to newsgroups and bulletin boards. The old fashoned ones, that you had to dial into directly to read. Not the newfangled ones that could be accessed through an ISP.

And it still stands, that there is not one all encompassing standard of ettiquite when it comes to top posting or bottom posting. Different bulliten boards have different recomendations, and bad ettiquite is disreguarding them and attempting to impose your own standard on others.

I still frequent at least 4 different newsgroups. And it is a pain posting on the one that demands people top post, when every other newsgroup bottom posts. It's easy to bottom post out of habit and annoy other posters. I do avoid those dailup bulletin boards now though, it saves on my long distance charges.
Last edited by Infidel on Mon 11.27.2006 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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