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Question regarding 思うんだ

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Question regarding 思うんだ

Postby CviCvraeVtMoriar » Fri 07.15.2005 12:24 am

This is a question, which I posed elsewhere, which was not answered:



俺には誰も助けられないと思うんだ、家族だろうが(な?)仲間だろうが(な?)誰も。 (This is a quote from FFVII AC.)

Why does クラウド say 「思うんだ」 and not 「思う」 or 「思います」 or 「思っている」 or 「思っています」 ?

I don't really understand why 「だ」, 「である」, would be appended to 「思う」.

Isn't the verb sufficient in and of itself without the 「だ」 ?

Is it because the 「ん」 is explanatory and doesn't occur without a verb copula of some kind?

*****EDIT*****

I am pretty sure now, having done some perusing through my Japanese grammar, that I am right and that it appears as 「思うんだ」 because explanatory 「ん」 never appears without a copula.

So here's another question.

Can you use watashino substantively, like this:
私のは一番永い :D

Or would one have to say something like this:
私のそれは一番永い ?
Last edited by CviCvraeVtMoriar on Mon 07.18.2005 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Question regarding 思うんだ

Postby Spaztick » Fri 07.15.2005 10:39 am

I can answer your first question, or at least explain it. The ん at the end is a shortened (and thus easier) way of saying の. Just saying の at the end of a sentence sounds kind of girly, so guys will usually stick a declarative だ at the end of it, so that's why you end up with のだ which turns into んだ.

Ah, I feel proud, I actually managed to explain something and get it right!
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RE: Question regarding 思うんだ

Postby battousai » Fri 07.15.2005 5:42 pm

Actually..your logic is off..

Although のだ can be shortened to んだ it is not because anything sounds girly.
んです(formal) or のだ(informal) is an ending of inflection that can imply inflection,surprise, rhetoricality, and other things Im too lazy to list.

Simply put, んだ is just another colloquial version of this.
I think your girly explanation is referring to females ending sentences in なの which is something completely different. The original poster answered their own question.
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RE: Question regarding 思うんだ

Postby Gaijinian » Fri 07.15.2005 8:43 pm

I'll try to explain:

~(na)no desu/da
~(na)n desu/da
~(na) no
All mean the same thing. 'n' being a couropution of 'no.'
(so, obviously, 'no da' is very uncommon outside of test-books and the likes)
What they do is imply more information, or possibly or like 'because'.

For example:
A Japanese looks at you funny becasue your white.
In explaning why your there, ryuu-gaku sei nan desu would be natural.
It means:
(the reason I'm here is) I'm studing abroad.

In a situation like that, ~(na)n desu is the most natural.

I went to Japan.
Sou? Doko ni itta-n desu ka?
Where did you go (I want to know more!)?

Remember not to touch the structue in Japanese.
e.g>>A good reply would be ~ ni itta-n desu.

(I posted this awhile ago...)

NO AND NANO


No and NANO are THE SAME!!!!!!!!(so it is no "completly different.")
の vs なの

の takes な before it, and always before it, in the case of na-adjectives and nouns.

Proper examples:
○ どこに行くんですか? ← simply の after a verb (nutral)
○ どこに行くのか? ← simply の after a verb (masculine)
○ どこに行くの? ← same (feminine)
○ 行きたくなかったので… ← even in past tense, still の after a verb (nutral)
○ 行きたいので… ← even conjugated verbs/i adj's, still just の (nutral)

○ 嫌(きら)いなのか? ← なの after a na-adj (masculine)
○ 一番(いちばん)好(す)きなのは… ← なの after a na-adj (nutral)
○ いや、先生(せんせい)なんですが… ← なの after a noun (nutral)
○ 何(なん)なんだよ… ← なの after a noun (何) (nutral/masculine-ish)

Incorrect examples:
×  どこに行(い)くなのか?
×  どこに行くなの?
×  行きたいなので…
×  行きたくなかったなので…

×  嫌いのか?
×  一番好きのは…
×  いや、先生ので…
×  何のか…

Huge, huge, unbelievably common mistake that a native speaker would never make, but a non-native speaker often flubs. Watch your の's versus なの's. They appear in dozens of different parts of speech, not just in sentence-final positions, but as nominalizers, emphatic markers, all sorts of places. However because the meaning of the sentence is still fine, you will probably never be "corrected" on it. You'll just sound like a novice forever.

(Note the one kind of の that doesn't need なの is the "of"/possession particle. 私の猫(ねこ).)

I HOPE that helped...
Last edited by Gaijinian on Fri 07.15.2005 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Question regarding 思うんだ

Postby Spaztick » Sat 07.16.2005 2:37 pm

Ah, thank you. At least now I won't look like an idiot trying to explain. :)
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RE: Question regarding 思うんだ

Postby CviCvraeVtMoriar » Sat 07.16.2005 6:05 pm

I sincerely thank you for your efforts; however - I don't know whether you know this or not - I had already answered my first question, as battousai said, and posed a second question - whether or not the particle 'no,' used to indicate possession, could be used substantively to indicate the possession of a prenominate thing, without the actual repitition of the word that should represent the thing in question (i.e. watashi-no-ha - As for mine).

Again, I thank you for your tenacity in answering my quondam question.

P.S.

行きたくなかった What is this?

It looks like 行く, put into the past (行きた) with the past negative enclitic (なかった) appended as well. So there would seem to me, who know very little about Japanese - I must admit - to be a tautology here.

Is it supposed to be: 行かなかった?


If anyone can answer the other question I had, my second question (in my first post), I would much appreciate it.
Last edited by CviCvraeVtMoriar on Sat 07.16.2005 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_____________________________________
Ni di me non pvlchrvm paterentvr, omnia bona agerem. Dixit: Cvr se deos liqvisse? Qvid se faceret? Di se fecissent foediorem qvam qvem canis ipse videre posset. Qvaeram a qvovis, vel diabolo, vt bellvs a se fiam modo ne malam vitam vivam. Dico, si aliter egissent, fvtvrvm fvisse vt bene viverem. - me
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RE: Question regarding 思うんだ

Postby battousai » Sat 07.16.2005 7:07 pm

I'm not sure I'm understanding your first question about a substantive noun clause from のは. Im guessing you mean, can you use "わたし の は" as a pronoun phrase to mean "My possession" and indicating it as the topic with a は. To be honest, I've never seen that used before. My honest guest would be that to say what youre trying to, "わたし の 事/物 は" would be more appropriate, because the previous clause really has no subject or noun for の to grasp on to. However, as I'm writing this it just occured to me that の can also be a pronoun for a previously introduced subject. I guess in essence わたし の の grammatically would work(not being serious) but is just..stupid. But I could have misinterpreted your question completely so disregard this until someone like Ian comes along.

As for your second question, that is an easy one. 行きたくなかった is the past negative casual form of 行きたい or I want to go. Just for a quick conjugation reference - 行きたい - I want to go, 行きたくない - I dont want to go, 行きたかった - I wanted to go, and 行きたくなかった - I did not want to go. As you can see, it is conjugated as an い adjective would be.
Hope that helps.
Last edited by battousai on Sat 07.16.2005 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Question regarding 思うんだ

Postby CviCvraeVtMoriar » Sat 07.16.2005 7:45 pm

I am quite sure that Watashi-no-ha would not constitute an actual clause, but rather an adverbial phrase - as no verb is implied or present; neither is there a subject, object, or predicate. :) (Smilely to dissimulate any apparent rudeness.) :D (This smilely is for the crappy joke I just made.) ... sic ad infinitum...

I do not think that you misinterpreted my question, unless I misinterpreted your response ;). But just to be sure, I meant: can you use 'watashino' to mean 'mine' as the subject of a verb or as a topic, a topic NOT meaning "as for me possessing"
(NOT "私のはそんなバイックがではないだろうよ." Forgive the poorness of my Japanese. I think you get the idea, though.)

This colloquial exchange should make cogent the nature of my question:
My bike is the coolest. No, mine (watashi-no-ha) is the coolest.

Incidentally, I was pretty sure, before I even asked the question, that it couldn't be used in such a way; I just wanted to make sure.

For clarification, a substantive is usually an adjective used as a noun (There is an ellipsis - as it were (not quite) - of the noun which it modifies.):

"Which car do you want?" "The red (one)" for "The red car" or "I want the red car"

or

"The simple will hardly be able to comprehend the corollaries of such an act." for "Simple people will hardly...".

Substantives aren't really at home in English; but in other languages - such as Latin - they are used quite extensively (Senes, the old; ivvenis, the young person; multa, many things; mala, bad things; bona, good things; ii (masculine, pl), these; ea (neuter, pl), these; eae (feminine, pl), these; stvlti, foolish people; et cetera... (cetera is a substantive too, meaning 'the others/rest/remaining')


As for your response to my other question:

I considered that it might be the result of tai; but for some reason I had a lapse in judgement and thought that tai took a V3 verb (V3-tai), not a V2 verb (V2-tai).


Thank you very much for answering my questions.
Last edited by CviCvraeVtMoriar on Tue 07.19.2005 5:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
_____________________________________
Ni di me non pvlchrvm paterentvr, omnia bona agerem. Dixit: Cvr se deos liqvisse? Qvid se faceret? Di se fecissent foediorem qvam qvem canis ipse videre posset. Qvaeram a qvovis, vel diabolo, vt bellvs a se fiam modo ne malam vitam vivam. Dico, si aliter egissent, fvtvrvm fvisse vt bene viverem. - me
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RE: Question regarding 思うんだ

Postby Schattenjedi » Mon 07.18.2005 11:22 am

Gaijinian wrote:
○ どこに行くの? ← same (feminine)


Gaijinian, in M Ryuuji's post on the animelyrics board he does not say that this example is feminine. Which is correct? I ask because I'm confused about it.
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RE: Question regarding 思うんだ

Postby Schattenjedi » Mon 07.18.2005 11:37 am

You are allowed to use 私の as a pronoun for 私のsomething if it is clear what you mean. I think you mean 一番永い instead of 番永い. In that case it makes since, I think.
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RE: Question regarding 思うんだ

Postby CviCvraeVtMoriar » Mon 07.18.2005 4:31 pm

Oops. That was what I meant. I don't know how I missed that...

Thanks again, Schattenjedi. ;)
_____________________________________
Ni di me non pvlchrvm paterentvr, omnia bona agerem. Dixit: Cvr se deos liqvisse? Qvid se faceret? Di se fecissent foediorem qvam qvem canis ipse videre posset. Qvaeram a qvovis, vel diabolo, vt bellvs a se fiam modo ne malam vitam vivam. Dico, si aliter egissent, fvtvrvm fvisse vt bene viverem. - me
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RE: Question regarding 思うんだ

Postby CviCvraeVtMoriar » Mon 07.18.2005 4:39 pm

By the way, apparently it’s (so said someone in a the chat) :

俺には誰も助けられないと思うんだ、家族だろうなあ仲間だろうなあ誰も。


It didn't seem to me that he was saying 「が」.

So what does なあ mean here? Is is just a confirmation seeking interrogative particle? Like: "As for by me, I think that noone is able to be helped. I don't think I can help family, can I?! Neither friends, can I?! noone..."
Last edited by CviCvraeVtMoriar on Mon 07.18.2005 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_____________________________________
Ni di me non pvlchrvm paterentvr, omnia bona agerem. Dixit: Cvr se deos liqvisse? Qvid se faceret? Di se fecissent foediorem qvam qvem canis ipse videre posset. Qvaeram a qvovis, vel diabolo, vt bellvs a se fiam modo ne malam vitam vivam. Dico, si aliter egissent, fvtvrvm fvisse vt bene viverem. - me
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RE: Question regarding 思うんだ

Postby Gaijinian » Mon 07.18.2005 6:11 pm

an extented な. ALSO! 助けられる here means help me.
SO:
No one is going to help me (I think). Not my family, not my friends, no one...

As for tasukerareru...

Ru verbs= pre masu and Rareru
U Verbs, =pre short negative + -areru (e.g. iu iwareru)
Suru= Sareru

It is something done to you. 渡辺さんに「日本語が上手だね」って言われた。. Watanabe said to me that my Japanese is good.

It can be... In the non-third person, also.
彼なら日本名が付けられてある。
He has a Japanese name "attached."

I'm often asked about life in America.
アメリカでの生活についてよく聞かれる。

It can also mean "It is done."

寿司はこう食べられる。= Sushi is eaten like this.
Last edited by Gaijinian on Tue 07.19.2005 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Question regarding 思うんだ

Postby CviCvraeVtMoriar » Mon 07.18.2005 7:56 pm

「助けられる」 is also the potential form of the verb 「助ける」.

I am quite certain that it means "I don't think that I am able to help anyone. Family. Friends. Noone." or, more literally, "As for by me, I think anyone at all to not be able to be helped... etc..."

If your explanation is correct, Gaijinian, then the subject marker 「俺が」 would be present, or topic marker would be 「俺は」 not 「俺には」. 「に」 here marks the personal agent.  If you were correct it would be something like:

「俺が誰もに助けられない」 と思うんだ。 家族だろうなあ。 仲間だろうなあ。 誰も。
or
「俺は誰もに助けられない」 と思うんだ。 家族だろうなあ。 仲間だろうなあ。 誰も。

(note: I don't know whether you can say 「誰もに」 but you get the idea.)

not

俺には誰も助けられないと思うんだ。 家族だろうなあ。 仲間だろうなあ。 誰も。 (Which is what it is.)

By the way, I know how to form and use the passive. ;)
Last edited by CviCvraeVtMoriar on Tue 07.19.2005 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ni di me non pvlchrvm paterentvr, omnia bona agerem. Dixit: Cvr se deos liqvisse? Qvid se faceret? Di se fecissent foediorem qvam qvem canis ipse videre posset. Qvaeram a qvovis, vel diabolo, vt bellvs a se fiam modo ne malam vitam vivam. Dico, si aliter egissent, fvtvrvm fvisse vt bene viverem. - me
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RE: Question regarding 思うんだ

Postby Gaijinian » Tue 07.19.2005 9:02 pm

OK, so I underestimated you, gomen ne! You have very good grammar knowledge, my knowledge is more conversational. So I make all sorts of grammar mistakes... (but just being able to read kana is enough to shock most Japanese... They feel gaijin cannot speak Japanese, no matter what, and I AM a gaijin [or a hinikkei lol]... stereotype, I know...). So, hey.

Also, I'm glad you answered your own question, and knew passive form. I was just explaining because YOU are not the only forumer. B)

んじゃ、馬鹿らしくCCMさんの日本語、低く評価したんですね。ゴメンね。文法などの知狽ヘ結高、まいですし、私の弱点のようです。よく分かっているところは会話体なんです。(例えば、CCMさんの文からちゃんと説明できる、書いてある「んだ」や「なあ」とか・・・そんな場合なら規則正しく理解しています(我がままww、冗談)。)ですから、文法の誤りがよくあって・・・。:( しかし、日本人はあまり気にしない!B) (実はさぁ、日本人に私たち外人(また、私みたいに外海しているなら、私たち「非日系ww)が思われるのは日本語なら全然学べない言葉っぽいだろう〜。カナしか読めなくても、況して漢字が読めたら、日本人がビックリさせる事ができま〜す。(決まりの文句ですよね:o):D

別にね、先の事わかっていて、良かったです。でも、CCMさん以外、この掲示板の中に他の人モいますし、みんなのために説明されましたよね。;)

でわ〜、これからよろしくお願いします。B):D:p:)

EDIT: I should say CCVM...Heh.
Last edited by Gaijinian on Tue 07.19.2005 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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