WagaWiki - User contributions [en]

User:Coco

Coco — Wed, 07 Apr 2010 07:56:34 GMT

Coco:

あ。遊んじゃえ。

==テスト==
てすとです。[[ている as a habitual action]].

===テスト===
てすとです。

Forum Etiquette

Coco — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 18:18:39 GMT

Coco: /* Etiquette for online forums */

===Ok, So you're New===

Everyone was new at one time or another, but that won't draw much mercy when you come into a new place and start stepping on people's toes instead of shaking their hands. Everyone has standards of respect; failing to meet these standards will draw contempt and ridicule, but there is hope. All you need to do is take a little time to show others respect by composing your messages seriously. I'm making this list because even though some of these should fall under the heading: Common Sense, the others are truly learned behaviors. If you've never seen a list like this before--rest assured--these rules will serve you well on any forum. 
日本人の参加者も増えてきたので、念のため日本語を書き添えます。(基本的にはネット常識の範囲ですが、やや異なる点もあります。)

==Etiquette for online forums==

1. Always read at least 50 posts before posting! 少なくとも過去1カ月程度の書き込みに目を通した上で投稿しましょう。 
:Nothing draws ridicule faster than asking a question right above someone else who asked the same question or correcting someone that's already been corrected. At the very least, read through an entire thread before posting to make sure someone else didn't already make your point. If you feel that the thread has too many pages to read them all, skip to the end and read the last 2 pages before posting on the thread. 
2. Always read the [http://s152453462.onlinehome.us/w/index.php?title=Just_the_FAQs FAQs] or any "[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=138 Read before posting]" messages. 「FAQ」と「Read before posting」に定期的に目を通すようにしましょう。 
:Posting a question answered in the FAQ will not make you friends. "Read before Posting" rules usually specify forum specific rules that often go beyond standard etiquette. Be sure to read it. 
:Japという略称は使わないように勧告されていますので、日本人の方も使わないようにお願いします。この呼称が広まることで特に不快な思いをなさるのは在外邦人・日系人の方々です。[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1502 参照] 同様にGaijinという言葉を不快に感じる方が少なからずいることはFAQにあるスレッドのとおりです。 
3. Write respectfully. 礼節をもって書き込みましょう。 
:This in not just modes of address but showing good grammar and spelling as well as following standard internet protocols: such as avoiding writing in ALL CAPS and using pertinent thread titles. Forums are not like a chat room with text wizzing by. Posters are expected to take the time to write well. Remember, if you respect your readers your readers will respect you. Learning a language means you take effective communication seriously. Prove it. 
:TJPのメンバーは国籍も年齢もさまざまです。読者はあなたより年長者で社会経験が豊富な方である可能性も高いのです。また書き込んだ日本語が学習され、そのまま使用される可能性がありますし、どの程度の敬意表現であるか問われる場合もあります。[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=10472 (参照)] 良識ある言葉遣いを心掛けてください。 
4. Don't spam. 回答がつかない場合でも催促するのはやめましょう。 
:Make one post. Always give at least 24 hours before complaining no one answered your post. If you answer two or more people, edit all your responses into one post. 
5. Before posting, google your question. 質問する前に検索サイトで調べてみましょう。 
:If your question is answered in the top 5 google hits, people will consider you too lazy to bother helping. 
6. Use the forum search function. フォーラム検索を充分に活用しましょう。
:If the forum has a search function, use it before posting. 
7. Don't ask for help without showing that you did make an effort on your own. TJPは英語の翻訳サイトではありません。 
:If you ask for help and show you made an effort, you automatically made friends who will extremely helpful. 
8. Don't Necropost without cause. コメントしたい議論の投稿日を確認するようにしましょう。 
:Necroposting is posting on a thread that was dead and buried and bringing it back to life. You avoid necroposting by looking at the Posted date. If the thread was controversial let it stay buried; if the thread seems pertinent then it should be ok to necropost. The important point is not to chime in on a heated discussion that ended years ago. 
:[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7662 参照] 
9. Be brief. 質問は簡潔にまとめましょう。 
:The more concise your post the more people that will read it and potentially reply.
10. Use white space. 読みやすいように工夫して書きましょう。 
:Big blocks of text are difficult to read. If you break up your paragraphs with a full blank line, more people will read them.
11. Don't post big pictures in the text. 大きすぎる写真の投稿は避けましょう。 
:Big pictures tend to ruin the forum formatting. Always post big pictures as a link, thumbnail links are ok.
:画面のレイアウトを乱すような大きな写真の投稿は避けてください。 
12. Avoid posting long URLs. 長いURLを引用する場合はリンクを埋め込みましょう。 
:Long URLs can also ruin the page formatting and just look bad. Some members use tinyurl.com but I suggest just making a link. Type the text you want to link then highlight it. On the composition window there will be a button for URL. Click it with the text highlighted and the text will now be surrounded by <nowiki>[url]your text[/url]</nowiki> after the first url type = then paste the URL. so it will look like this. <nowiki>[url=http://www.google.com]Google[/url]</nowiki> If you post like this, the readers will just see the link for Google with the rest hidden. 
:1行では納まらないURLアドレスが画面のレイアウトを乱すことがあるそうです。そのため長いURLを記載する場合は、リンクの埋め込みが推奨されています。[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3029 参照] 埋め込み方法は<nowiki>[url=http://www.google.com]Google[/url]</nowiki> です。リンク先のアドレスの前に[url= を入れ、リンクしたい言葉(ここではGoogle)の先頭を ] で閉じ、その言葉の末尾に[/url]を入れます。 
13. Don't hijack threads. スレッドの乗っ取りはやめましょう。 
:Making a post that does not even relate to a previous post on the thread is considered hijacking. Another form of hijacking is to transform someone else's thread into your own by asking a new question on someone else's thread. The standard rule for posting is one thread one question. It's best to start a new thread if you have a new question. Be warned, hijacking a tread is a form of contempt. If regular members start hijacking your thread, then it's usually a sign you broke one of the rules of etiquette. 
:スレッド・ハイジャックの定義は微妙ですが、他の人が立てたスレッドで会話の流れにそぐわない質問をすることは嫌われています。英語表現について質問する場合も、この点に注意が必要です。[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4779#p48243 参照] [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5684 参照] 
:ただしスレッドの趣旨から考えて[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=6643 英語の語法と質問]は、英語に関する質問である限りスレッド・ハイジャックにはあたりません。 
:
14. Don't insult the mods. 管理者・運営者へは敬意を払いましょう。 
:This is one of those common sense things I mentioned.
:
15. Don't troll. 煽りを目的とした投稿はやめましょう。 
:Trolling is deliberately stirring controversy. There are different types of Trolls, but all like to stir up trouble.
:
16. Don't feed the trolls. 煽りや荒らしにエサを与えるのはやめましょう。 
:Now that you know what a troll is, you know how to fight them. Trolls feed on attention. If you ignore them they die the slow painful death they deserve.
:
17. Don't flame. 冷静に議論しましょう。 
:If you have a problem with a post, only address your problems with the post. Never insult the poster. Flaming is dedicating an entire post, or series of posts, to insulting another poster.
18. Never ask another poster to break the rules of Internet Safety. 個人情報に配慮しましょう。 
:Asking for personal information, such as e-mail addresses, on a public forum is a ''Bad Thing''. If you are unfamiliar with basic internet safety then go learn that, then come back. Internet Safety first. 
:個人名(フルネーム)や住所が記載された質問は、注意を促すようにしましょう。[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8227#p95821 参考][http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6845 参照]
:また趣旨が極めて不可解なものは運営者への通知をお願いします。[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3325 参照] 
:
19. Take the time to say thank you. 回答へのお礼を忘れずに。 
:Don't ask a question and never post again on the thread. Then other members will believe you don't value their help.
:基本です。 
:
20. Please respect copyrights by not posting song lyrics or anything else that falls beyond the bounds of Fair Use. Don't recommend sites knows for pirating, or recommend others use any extra legal means to aquire materials they desire. 著作権に配慮しましょう。
:JASRACが権利を持つ歌詞の引用は特に厳しい対応が予想され、サイト運営者の責任が問われる可能性もあります。質問者の引用が著作権に抵触するか否か判断の上で対応をお願いします。同様に質問する際にも著作権にご配慮ください。 

[[Category:TheJapanesePage.Com]]

Why TJP doesn't help with Japanese Tattoos

Coco — Wed, 22 Jul 2009 01:31:13 GMT

Coco:

It is important to first point out that the ''Chinese character tattoos'' currently trendy in the West and ''Japanese tattoos'' are two completely different, unrelated creatures.

True Japanese tattoos are typically full-body works of art incorporating historical and mythical imagery and drawn using traditional artistic styles. The roots of Japanese tattooing go back almost 2000 years, but the practice has recently passed into disfavor in contemporary Japan due to its association with the underworld.

On the other hand, the Chinese character tattoos that many Westerners think of when they hear ‘Japanese Tattoo’ is a very recent fad. This fad capitalizes on the current popularity of Asian culture in general, and of Japanese culture specifically. Getting a tattoo of beautiful script from a distant and ‘mysterious’ culture seems to be quite trendy these days.

These Chinese character tattoos have become a sore spot for all of us here at TJP. There are several reasons for this.

To begin with, tattoos are meant to reflect a part of the wearer’s personality. Having a well-thought out and meaningful design permanently engraved on one’s body can certainly be beautiful and expressive. The problem is, what does it say about your personality when you are completely ignorant about the meaning, nuance and subtle beauty of the image tattooed into your skin? We here at TJP have no desire to participate in someone else’s ignorance and stupidity.

Another important point is that a poorly designed and written character tattoo does nothing but ridicule and demean the cultures from which they originate. We here at TJP invest much (if not all) of our lives to diligently studying the language and culture of Japan. The last thing we want to do is participate in any act that cheapens what we work so hard to appreciate and understand. If you can’t make the effort to learn about the Japanese language, then don’t ask us to do it for you in the name of what amounts to little more than a trendy fashion statement.

'''Other Points to Consider:'''

-- Just because someone told you that your character tattoo means ‘I dance with death,’ doesn’t mean it does. For all you and your tattooist know, those characters read ‘Kung Pao Chicken.’

-- Phrases that you think might sound cool in English are very often (in fact, usually) ridiculous once translated into Japanese. ‘Shadow Warrior,’ ‘Spirit Woman’ or ‘Free Spirit’ might sound nice in English, but anyone who can read Japanese would laugh at the translations of any one of these. And since neither you nor your friends can understand your tattoo, the only people who can understand it will be laughing.

-- Even well-thought out, well-researched and well-designed tattoos can be subject to mistakes during the tattoo process. Chances are high (close to 100%, in fact) that your tattooist doesn’t read Japanese or Chinese. The tattooist therefore has no idea whether or not he is properly writing the characters. Even minor errors can change your ‘Tar Heels’ tattoo to ‘Bug,’ or your ‘Proud Warrior’ tattoo to ‘Proud Dirt.’ There have even been plenty of examples of characters being tattooed upside down or in mirror-reverse. Just take a moment to imagine, if you will, smiling ever so proudly as you show off your ‘cool’ character tattoo that reads ‘Angel,’ all the while not realizing that it's an upside-down version of ‘Heaven’s Turd’. . .

--[[User:Mukade|Mukade]] 00:20, 27 October 2006 (EDT)

-- Generally, a person who has a tattoo will have trouble if they need to purchase a life insurance policy in Japan. Even though they can buy a life insurance policy, in Japan it is considered legal that a life insurance company can refuse an insurance payment for an insured person who has a tattoo.

-- Some hospitals in Japan will not give an MRI exam for a tattooed person because several types of tattoo ink can cause a burn on their tattoo. [http://www.okn.gr.jp/index.php/a_2_2_5] [http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howthingswork/f/bltattoomri.htm]

==Related pages==
[[Tattoos in Japan]]

[http://www.hanzismatter.com/ Hanzi Smatter]

[[Category:TheJapanesePage.Com]]

Why TJP doesn't help with Japanese Tattoos

Coco — Wed, 22 Jul 2009 01:20:04 GMT

Coco:

It is important to first point out that the ''Chinese character tattoos'' currently trendy in the West and ''Japanese tattoos'' are two completely different, unrelated creatures.

True Japanese tattoos are typically full-body works of art incorporating historical and mythical imagery and drawn using traditional artistic styles. The roots of Japanese tattooing go back almost 2000 years, but the practice has recently passed into disfavor in contemporary Japan due to its association with the underworld.

On the other hand, the Chinese character tattoos that many Westerners think of when they hear ‘Japanese Tattoo’ is a very recent fad. This fad capitalizes on the current popularity of Asian culture in general, and of Japanese culture specifically. Getting a tattoo of beautiful script from a distant and ‘mysterious’ culture seems to be quite trendy these days.

These Chinese character tattoos have become a sore spot for all of us here at TJP. There are several reasons for this.

To begin with, tattoos are meant to reflect a part of the wearer’s personality. Having a well-thought out and meaningful design permanently engraved on one’s body can certainly be beautiful and expressive. The problem is, what does it say about your personality when you are completely ignorant about the meaning, nuance and subtle beauty of the image tattooed into your skin? We here at TJP have no desire to participate in someone else’s ignorance and stupidity.

Another important point is that a poorly designed and written character tattoo does nothing but ridicule and demean the cultures from which they originate. We here at TJP invest much (if not all) of our lives to diligently studying the language and culture of Japan. The last thing we want to do is participate in any act that cheapens what we work so hard to appreciate and understand. If you can’t make the effort to learn about the Japanese language, then don’t ask us to do it for you in the name of what amounts to little more than a trendy fashion statement.

'''Other Points to Consider:'''

-- Just because someone told you that your character tattoo means ‘I dance with death,’ doesn’t mean it does. For all you and your tattooist know, those characters read ‘Kung Pao Chicken.’

-- Phrases that you think might sound cool in English are very often (in fact, usually) ridiculous once translated into Japanese. ‘Shadow Warrior,’ ‘Spirit Woman’ or ‘Free Spirit’ might sound nice in English, but anyone who can read Japanese would laugh at the translations of any one of these. And since neither you nor your friends can understand your tattoo, the only people who can understand it will be laughing.

-- Even well-thought out, well-researched and well-designed tattoos can be subject to mistakes during the tattoo process. Chances are high (close to 100%, in fact) that your tattooist doesn’t read Japanese or Chinese. The tattooist therefore has no idea whether or not he is properly writing the characters. Even minor errors can change your ‘Tar Heels’ tattoo to ‘Bug,’ or your ‘Proud Warrior’ tattoo to ‘Proud Dirt.’ There have even been plenty of examples of characters being tattooed upside down or in mirror-reverse. Just take a moment to imagine, if you will, smiling ever so proudly as you show off your ‘cool’ character tattoo that reads ‘Angel,’ all the while not realizing that it's an upside-down version of ‘Heaven’s Turd’. . .

--[[User:Mukade|Mukade]] 00:20, 27 October 2006 (EDT)

-- Generally, a person who has a tattoo will have trouble if they need to purchase a life insurance policy in Japan. Even though they can buy a life insurance policy, in Japan it is considered legal that a life insurance company can refuse an insurance payment for an insured person who has a tattoo.

--　Some hospitals in Japan will not give an MRI exam for a tattooed person because several types of tattoo ink can cause a burn on their tattoo. [http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howthingswork/f/bltattoomri.htm]

==Related pages==
[[Tattoos in Japan]]

[http://www.hanzismatter.com/ Hanzi Smatter]

[[Category:TheJapanesePage.Com]]

Why TJP doesn't help with Japanese Tattoos

Coco — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 22:14:58 GMT

Coco:

It is important to first point out that the ''Chinese character tattoos'' currently trendy in the West and ''Japanese tattoos'' are two completely different, unrelated creatures.

True Japanese tattoos are typically full-body works of art incorporating historical and mythical imagery and drawn using traditional artistic styles. The roots of Japanese tattooing go back almost 2000 years, but the practice has recently passed into disfavor in contemporary Japan due to its association with the underworld.

On the other hand, the Chinese character tattoos that many Westerners think of when they hear ‘Japanese Tattoo’ is a very recent fad. This fad capitalizes on the current popularity of Asian culture in general, and of Japanese culture specifically. Getting a tattoo of beautiful script from a distant and ‘mysterious’ culture seems to be quite trendy these days.

These Chinese character tattoos have become a sore spot for all of us here at TJP. There are several reasons for this.

To begin with, tattoos are meant to reflect a part of the wearer’s personality. Having a well-thought out and meaningful design permanently engraved on one’s body can certainly be beautiful and expressive. The problem is, what does it say about your personality when you are completely ignorant about the meaning, nuance and subtle beauty of the image tattooed into your skin? We here at TJP have no desire to participate in someone else’s ignorance and stupidity.

Another important point is that a poorly designed and written character tattoo does nothing but ridicule and demean the cultures from which they originate. We here at TJP invest much (if not all) of our lives to diligently studying the language and culture of Japan. The last thing we want to do is participate in any act that cheapens what we work so hard to appreciate and understand. If you can’t make the effort to learn about the Japanese language, then don’t ask us to do it for you in the name of what amounts to little more than a trendy fashion statement.

'''Other Points to Consider:'''

-- Just because someone told you that your character tattoo means ‘I dance with death,’ doesn’t mean it does. For all you and your tattooist know, those characters read ‘Kung Pao Chicken.’

-- Phrases that you think might sound cool in English are very often (in fact, usually) ridiculous once translated into Japanese. ‘Shadow Warrior,’ ‘Spirit Woman’ or ‘Free Spirit’ might sound nice in English, but anyone who can read Japanese would laugh at the translations of any one of these. And since neither you nor your friends can understand your tattoo, the only people who can understand it will be laughing.

-- Even well-thought out, well-researched and well-designed tattoos can be subject to mistakes during the tattoo process. Chances are high (close to 100%, in fact) that your tattooist doesn’t read Japanese or Chinese. The tattooist therefore has no idea whether or not he is properly writing the characters. Even minor errors can change your ‘Tar Heels’ tattoo to ‘Bug,’ or your ‘Proud Warrior’ tattoo to ‘Proud Dirt.’ There have even been plenty of examples of characters being tattooed upside down or in mirror-reverse. Just take a moment to imagine, if you will, smiling ever so proudly as you show off your ‘cool’ character tattoo that reads ‘Angel,’ all the while not realizing that it's an upside-down version of ‘Heaven’s Turd’. . .

--[[User:Mukade|Mukade]] 00:20, 27 October 2006 (EDT)

-- Generally, a person who has a tattoo will have trouble if they need to purchase a life insurance policy in Japan. Even though they can buy a life insurance policy, in Japan it is considered legal that a life insurance company can refuse an insurance payment for an insured person who has a tattoo.

--　Some hospitals in Japan will not give an MRI exam for a tattooed person because several type of tattoo inks cqn cause a burn on their tattoo.

==Related pages==
[[Tattoos in Japan]]

[http://www.hanzismatter.com/ Hanzi Smatter]

[http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howthingswork/f/bltattoomri.htm MRI reaction with tattoos]
[[Category:TheJapanesePage.Com]]

Why TJP doesn't help with Japanese Tattoos

Coco — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 22:02:23 GMT

Coco:

It is important to first point out that the ''Chinese character tattoos'' currently trendy in the West and ''Japanese tattoos'' are two completely different, unrelated creatures.

True Japanese tattoos are typically full-body works of art incorporating historical and mythical imagery and drawn using traditional artistic styles. The roots of Japanese tattooing go back almost 2000 years, but the practice has recently passed into disfavor in contemporary Japan due to its association with the underworld.

On the other hand, the Chinese character tattoos that many Westerners think of when they hear ‘Japanese Tattoo’ is a very recent fad. This fad capitalizes on the current popularity of Asian culture in general, and of Japanese culture specifically. Getting a tattoo of beautiful script from a distant and ‘mysterious’ culture seems to be quite trendy these days.

These Chinese character tattoos have become a sore spot for all of us here at TJP. There are several reasons for this.

To begin with, tattoos are meant to reflect a part of the wearer’s personality. Having a well-thought out and meaningful design permanently engraved on one’s body can certainly be beautiful and expressive. The problem is, what does it say about your personality when you are completely ignorant about the meaning, nuance and subtle beauty of the image tattooed into your skin? We here at TJP have no desire to participate in someone else’s ignorance and stupidity.

Another important point is that a poorly designed and written character tattoo does nothing but ridicule and demean the cultures from which they originate. We here at TJP invest much (if not all) of our lives to diligently studying the language and culture of Japan. The last thing we want to do is participate in any act that cheapens what we work so hard to appreciate and understand. If you can’t make the effort to learn about the Japanese language, then don’t ask us to do it for you in the name of what amounts to little more than a trendy fashion statement.

'''Other Points to Consider:'''

-- Just because someone told you that your character tattoo means ‘I dance with death,’ doesn’t mean it does. For all you and your tattooist know, those characters read ‘Kung Pao Chicken.’

-- Phrases that you think might sound cool in English are very often (in fact, usually) ridiculous once translated into Japanese. ‘Shadow Warrior,’ ‘Spirit Woman’ or ‘Free Spirit’ might sound nice in English, but anyone who can read Japanese would laugh at the translations of any one of these. And since neither you nor your friends can understand your tattoo, the only people who can understand it will be laughing.

-- Even well-thought out, well-researched and well-designed tattoos can be subject to mistakes during the tattoo process. Chances are high (close to 100%, in fact) that your tattooist doesn’t read Japanese or Chinese. The tattooist therefore has no idea whether or not he is properly writing the characters. Even minor errors can change your ‘Tar Heels’ tattoo to ‘Bug,’ or your ‘Proud Warrior’ tattoo to ‘Proud Dirt.’ There have even been plenty of examples of characters being tattooed upside down or in mirror-reverse. Just take a moment to imagine, if you will, smiling ever so proudly as you show off your ‘cool’ character tattoo that reads ‘Angel,’ all the while not realizing that it's an upside-down version of ‘Heaven’s Turd’. . .

--[[User:Mukade|Mukade]] 00:20, 27 October 2006 (EDT)

-- Generally, a person who has a tattoo will have trouble if they need to purchase a life insurance policy in Japan. Even though they can buy a life insurance policy, in Japan it is considered legal that a life insurance company can refuse an insurance payment for an insured person who has a tattoo.

--　Some hospitals in Japan will not give an MRI exam for a tattooed person because several inks cause a burn on their tattoo.

==Related pages==
[[Tattoos in Japan]]

[http://www.hanzismatter.com/ Hanzi Smatter]

[http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howthingswork/f/bltattoomri.htm MRI reaction with tattoos]
[[Category:TheJapanesePage.Com]]

Why TJP doesn't help with Japanese Tattoos

Coco — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 22:00:27 GMT

Coco:

It is important to first point out that the ''Chinese character tattoos'' currently trendy in the West and ''Japanese tattoos'' are two completely different, unrelated creatures.

True Japanese tattoos are typically full-body works of art incorporating historical and mythical imagery and drawn using traditional artistic styles. The roots of Japanese tattooing go back almost 2000 years, but the practice has recently passed into disfavor in contemporary Japan due to its association with the underworld.

On the other hand, the Chinese character tattoos that many Westerners think of when they hear ‘Japanese Tattoo’ is a very recent fad. This fad capitalizes on the current popularity of Asian culture in general, and of Japanese culture specifically. Getting a tattoo of beautiful script from a distant and ‘mysterious’ culture seems to be quite trendy these days.

These Chinese character tattoos have become a sore spot for all of us here at TJP. There are several reasons for this.

To begin with, tattoos are meant to reflect a part of the wearer’s personality. Having a well-thought out and meaningful design permanently engraved on one’s body can certainly be beautiful and expressive. The problem is, what does it say about your personality when you are completely ignorant about the meaning, nuance and subtle beauty of the image tattooed into your skin? We here at TJP have no desire to participate in someone else’s ignorance and stupidity.

Another important point is that a poorly designed and written character tattoo does nothing but ridicule and demean the cultures from which they originate. We here at TJP invest much (if not all) of our lives to diligently studying the language and culture of Japan. The last thing we want to do is participate in any act that cheapens what we work so hard to appreciate and understand. If you can’t make the effort to learn about the Japanese language, then don’t ask us to do it for you in the name of what amounts to little more than a trendy fashion statement.

'''Other Points to Consider:'''

-- Just because someone told you that your character tattoo means ‘I dance with death,’ doesn’t mean it does. For all you and your tattooist know, those characters read ‘Kung Pao Chicken.’

-- Phrases that you think might sound cool in English are very often (in fact, usually) ridiculous once translated into Japanese. ‘Shadow Warrior,’ ‘Spirit Woman’ or ‘Free Spirit’ might sound nice in English, but anyone who can read Japanese would laugh at the translations of any one of these. And since neither you nor your friends can understand your tattoo, the only people who can understand it will be laughing.

-- Even well-thought out, well-researched and well-designed tattoos can be subject to mistakes during the tattoo process. Chances are high (close to 100%, in fact) that your tattooist doesn’t read Japanese or Chinese. The tattooist therefore has no idea whether or not he is properly writing the characters. Even minor errors can change your ‘Tar Heels’ tattoo to ‘Bug,’ or your ‘Proud Warrior’ tattoo to ‘Proud Dirt.’ There have even been plenty of examples of characters being tattooed upside down or in mirror-reverse. Just take a moment to imagine, if you will, smiling ever so proudly as you show off your ‘cool’ character tattoo that reads ‘Angel,’ all the while not realizing that it's an upside-down version of ‘Heaven’s Turd’. . .

--[[User:Mukade|Mukade]] 00:20, 27 October 2006 (EDT)

-- Generally, a person who has a tattoo will have trouble if they need to purchase a life insurance policy in Japan. Even though they can buy a life insurance policy, in Japan it is considered legal that a life insurance company can refuse an insurance payment for an insured person who has a tattoo.

--　Some hospitals in Japan will not give an MRI exam for a tattooed person because several inks cause a burn on their tattoo.

==Related pages==
[[Tattoos in Japan]]

[http://www.hanzismatter.com/ Hanzi Smatter]

[http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howthingswork/f/bltattoomri.htm MRI reaction with tattoos]
[[Category:TheJapanesePage.Com]]

Advice on Learning Japanese

Coco — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 00:27:34 GMT

Coco:

1. If you have any choice about which textbook to use: I recommend "[http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=qY4y4ICziw8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=Learn+Japanese#PPP1,M1 Learn Japanese: New College Text]". This text is in four volumes (tapes available) and is published by the University of Hawaii Press. They are far superior to any of the "Learn Japanese in 10 Minutes a Day" type texts you will find. Special order them if necessary. I have encountered people who hate the text I recommend. Admittedly, it has been several years since I actively studied Japanese. There are very likely better texts available today. Search the web. Talk to people who are currently studying.

2. Whatever texts/materials you may use...DO NOT skip over the part about pronunciation. Japanese has only 5 vowel sounds. Make sure you aren't using any others. Good habits developed at this point will pay off later. There is no use working and memorizing words with the wrong pronunciations. This will only cause others trouble understanding you and you trouble understanding them.

3. Here are some things that tend to throw many English speakers about Japanese...

* There are no articles (a, an, the)
* In general, there are no plurals
* The present tense and the future tense are one and the same
* Adjectives conjugate, they have negative forms and past tenses just like verbs do
* The subject of the sentence can often be left out, as can other parts.
* There is no particular need to speak in "complete sentences" (From an English speaker's way of thinking)
* Some grammatical markers can be left out of the sentences if they are obvious
* Japanese has LOTS of pronouns and avoids using them whenever possible
* There are two ways of saying every verb, grammatically the same, but having different "politeness levels"
* There is a "continuative tense", so that in a string of verbs, only the final one need show whether the entire sequence is in the present/future tense or in the past tense.

4. Do the drills. No matter how boring they may be, do them. Hard work now internalizing these patterns pays off later in being able to use them without particularly thinking about them.

5. When you have a firm grasp of how to use a structure correctly, create tons of sentences using it yourself. Your goal is to be able to speak, and hopefully to speak correctly. Make a sentence in your head (or out loud) and drill yourself in every possible permutation of it that you are certain you can use correctly. DO NOT do this with structures you aren't sure about. This ties in with #4 above. Too many people avoid this, thinking it to be too much bother. Stepping away from the textbook drills and making your own original sentences mirrors exactly what you will have to do in real-life situations. Do it now and do it often. Then actual conversations where you have to make every statement yourself from scratch, and not merely rearrange a textbook drill sentence will go so much more smoothly and be so much more enjoyable. If you think it's too much trouble now, when no pressure is on you, do you really think it will be any easier in an actual conversation?

6. If you see a couple of words which to you look/sound very similar, ABSOLUTELY DO NOT attempt to learn them on the same day. They will be confused in your head for years. Learn one now and leave the other for a week or so.

7. No matter what a pain it is...learn to read/write the hiragana and katakana systems as soon as you can. If you really seriously want to progress in your studies, there is no avoiding it. Also, start to learn the kanji as soon as possible. Don't rush it or burn yourself out, but don't neglect it either. A good knowledge of kanji will help you not only in reading, but also help you to figure out new words you encounter in conversations. It is said that fire is both man's best friend and his worst enemy. Kanji can be either your best friend or your worst enemy in studying Japanese. Make friends with them as early as you can. You'll be glad you did. Wishing they didn't exist will NOT make them go away. Being illiterate in a highly literate society is no damned fun. If you are or will be in Japan, life will be much easier if you can read things for yourself rather than relying on a Japanese to hold your hand and wipe your linguistic butt for you.

8. When you start to lose heart at your progress, turn back and look at Lesson 1 or Lesson 2. Try to remember when that lesson was kicking your butt the same way the lesson you are on now is kicking it now. You'll get it. Back off and give your subconscious a couple of days to work on it. It'll be easier to understand when you come back to it. It is extremely hard to see your own progress because you are bogged down in whatever the lesson at hand is. Sometimes you need to turn around and look how far you've come.

9. Do try to avoid what everyone seems to get into to some degree...making Japanese ability a contest. You speak as well as you speak...I speak as well as I speak. We're all going the same place and it is not a race. So some other guy knows a couple hundred kanji but katakana still has you breaking out in cold sweats...don't worry about it. I can read well over a thousand kanji and I remember very clearly when I thought that even having to learn a hundred would surely burst my brain. Of course, I've been at it for over a decade now. If you work on it that long, you don't have to be a genius to pick them up. On the other hand, you would have to be pretty stupid not to (especially if you were in Japan the entire time)

10. Dictionaries are crutches. Try to learn to walk without them if you can. If you are using them to look up a Japanese word that you have run across, first make your best guess about what the word means. Look at the situation the word is used in. Use all the knowledge you have of Japanese grammar to at least deduce what the part of speech is. Apply common sense. Figure out what is possible. Narrow it down to your best couple of choices. THEN look it up. See if your idea was right. If it was, you feel like a genius. If it wasn't right, that's OK too. Now you go back over your reasoning and see where you went wrong. Try to keep that situation and that usage in mind. If you hear the same word later in a different situation, try to figure out what those situations have in common.

It is important to develop the skill of deducing vocabulary from context. Practicing, as outlined above, is important. Like any skill, the more you do it, the better and faster at it you get. Until some day you find that (combined with your kanji study) you can often pick up words "on the fly" in a conversation and turn around and use them right back at your conversation partner, who won't have a clue that that was the first time in your life you had ever heard it.

11. When choosing words to memorize, ask yourself "Do I normally use the English equivalent of this word?". If the answer is "No.", then leave the word for later. You have more important stuff to remember.

12. Given a choice of learning 10 new nouns or 1 new verb.....learn the verb.

13. Given a choice of learning 10 new verbs or mastering one new verb tense.....learn the verb tense.

You can pick up nouns during a conversation relatively easily, either by pointing, drawing, or describing. Anyway, in Japanese you can often be a bit vague and there are techniques for getting around using the noun (at times). It is not so easy to pick up a new verb during the conversation. It is much more difficult to try to work out new verb tenses from the conversation. Japanese verb conjugations are very regular. So that if you learn a new tense/conjugation, it is very very easy to apply it to every verb you already know. If you know more tenses and verbs, you can often describe the noun you want to know and have your partner teach it to you on the spot.

14. Making mistakes goes with the territory. Not being able to recall a certain word or tense during a conversation and them suddenly remembering it just after the conversation is over is normal. It happens to everybody. Go ahead, chastize yourself. Feel stupid. That's good for you. It makes you more determined not to let that happen again. With enough practice and enough times of this happening, they do start to gradually decrease.

15. "wa" and "ga" confuse the hell out of everybody. Don't feel like the Lone Ranger. With "ni" , "de", and "wo", you are on more solid ground and can expect someday to get a very firm handle on them. It'll come, you'll get it.

16. During the drills, if your mind goes blank on you....let it. But continue with the drills. Just go with the flow. Trust your first instinct and you'll be surprised to find that quite often it is correct.

17. Unless you're studying for a graded course....study only as long as it's fun. The second it starts to feel like work, put it down and leave it for a day or two. Haven't studied for a few weeks/months? Don't feel bad, just go back at it. Rome wasn't built in a day. Presumably when you decided to study Japanese you had in mind the goal of becoming somewhat proficient in it. It's sort of hard to reach that goal if you let yourself develop a hatred of the language while in pursuit of your goal.

18. For kanji recall I recommend using some sort of small reference book (not a textbook, or perhaps in conjunction with a text book)

* Start at the beginning. Read the section about stroke order and stroke count. It looks like bullshit now, but if later you ever need to look up kanji in a dictionary, this will be a very valuable skill.
* Use your finger and trace out the kanji on your palm, thigh, whatever. Do that several times, envision it.
* Try to remember at least one meaning, one reading, or both.
* Make sure to remember whether a reading is a "kun" or an "on" reading. This will come in handy later.
* Get a piece of notebook paper, use a ruler to mark it off in grids big enough to hold one kanji each.
* On the paper, write every kanji you can think of. Go until you just can't go anymore.
* Now, go back through your little handy reference book and see which ones you missed. Mentally kick your own butt.
* Wait a while and do it all over again. Hopefully you will have gotten the ones you forgot on the previous go. If you work on this diligently, you should be able to increase your recall dramatically, perhaps to over 90% of all the kanji you have learned.

--- 
This was posted by Mike Cash, written in 1997. The original thread is [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11804&start==136241#p136241 here]

[[Category:TheJapanesePage.Com]]
[[Category:Practice]]

Advice on Learning Japanese

Coco — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 15:27:20 GMT

Coco: ??????

Advice on Learning Japanese

Coco — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 15:11:10 GMT

Coco:

Advice on Learning Japanese

Coco — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 14:56:40 GMT

Coco:

1. If you have any choice about which textbook to use: I recommend "[http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=qY4y4ICziw8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=Learn+Japanese#PPP1,M1 Learn Japanese: New College Text]". This text is in four volumes (tapes available) and is published by the University of Hawaii Press. They are far superior to any of the "Learn Japanese in 10 Minutes a Day" type texts you will find. Special order them if necessary. I have encountered people who hate the text I recommend. Admittedly, it has been several years since I actively studied Japanese. There are very likely better texts available today. Search the web. Talk to people who are currently studying.

2. Whatever texts/materials you may use...DO NOT skip over the part about pronunciation. Japanese has only 5 vowel sounds. Make sure you aren't using any others. Good habits developed at this point will pay off later. There is no use working and memorizing words with the wrong pronunciations. This will only cause others trouble understanding you and you trouble understanding them.

3. Here are some things that tend to throw many English speakers about Japanese...

* There are no articles (a, an, the)
* In general, there are no plurals
* The present tense and the future tense are one and the same
* Adjectives conjugate, they have negative forms and past tenses just like verbs do
* The subject of the sentence can often be left out, as can other parts.
* There is no particular need to speak in "complete sentences" (From an English speaker's way of thinking)
* Some grammatical markers can be left out of the sentences if they are obvious
* Japanese has LOTS of pronouns and avoids using them whenever possible
* There are two ways of saying every verb, grammatically the same, but having different "politeness levels"
* There is a "continuative tense", so that in a string of verbs, only the final one need show whether the entire sequence is in the present/future tense or in the past tense.

4. Do the drills. No matter how boring they may be, do them. Hard work now internalizing these patterns pays off later in being able to use them without particularly thinking about them.

5. When you have a firm grasp of how to use a structure correctly, create tons of sentences using it yourself. Your goal is to be able to speak, and hopefully to speak correctly. Make a sentence in your head (or out loud) and drill yourself in every possible permutation of it that you are certain you can use correctly. DO NOT do this with structures you aren't sure about. This ties in with #4 above. Too many people avoid this, thinking it to be too much bother. Stepping away from the textbook drills and making your own original sentences mirrors exactly what you will have to do in real-life situations. Do it now and do it often. Then actual conversations where you have to make every statement yourself from scratch, and not merely rearrange a textbook drill sentence will go so much more smoothly and be so much more enjoyable. If you think it's too much trouble now, when no pressure is on you, do you really think it will be any easier in an actual conversation?

6. If you see a couple of words which to you look/sound very similar, ABSOLUTELY DO NOT attempt to learn them on the same day. They will be confused in your head for years. Learn one now and leave the other for a week or so.

7. No matter what a pain it is...learn to read/write the hiragana and katakana systems as soon as you can. If you really seriously want to progress in your studies, there is no avoiding it. Also, start to learn the kanji as soon as possible. Don't rush it or burn yourself out, but don't neglect it either. A good knowledge of kanji will help you not only in reading, but also help you to figure out new words you encounter in conversations. It is said that fire is both man's best friend and his worst enemy. Kanji can be either your best friend or your worst enemy in studying Japanese. Make friends with them as early as you can. You'll be glad you did. Wishing they didn't exist will NOT make them go away. Being illiterate in a highly literate society is no damned fun. If you are or will be in Japan, life will be much easier if you can read things for yourself rather than relying on a Japanese to hold your hand and wipe your linguistic butt for you.

8. When you start to lose heart at your progress, turn back and look at Lesson 1 or Lesson 2. Try to remember when that lesson was kicking your butt the same way the lesson you are on now is kicking it now. You'll get it. Back off and give your subconscious a couple of days to work on it. It'll be easier to understand when you come back to it. It is extremely hard to see your own progress because you are bogged down in whatever the lesson at hand is. Sometimes you need to turn around and look how far you've come.

9. Do try to avoid what everyone seems to get into to some degree...making Japanese ability a contest. You speak as well as you speak...I speak as well as I speak. We're all going the same place and it is not a race. So some other guy knows a couple hundred kanji but katakana still has you breaking out in cold sweats...don't worry about it. I can read well over a thousand kanji and I remember very clearly when I thought that even having to learn a hundred would surely burst my brain. Of course, I've been at it for over a decade now. If you work on it that long, you don't have to be a genius to pick them up. On the other hand, you would have to be pretty stupid not to (especially if you were in Japan the entire time)

10. Dictionaries are crutches. Try to learn to walk without them if you can. If you are using them to look up a Japanese word that you have run across, first make your best guess about what the word means. Look at the situation the word is used in. Use all the knowledge you have of Japanese grammar to at least deduce what the part of speech is. Apply common sense. Figure out what is possible. Narrow it down to your best couple of choices. THEN look it up. See if your idea was right. If it was, you feel like a genius. If it wasn't right, that's OK too. Now you go back over your reasoning and see where you went wrong. Try to keep that situation and that usage in mind. If you hear the same word later in a different situation, try to figure out what those situations have in common.

It is important to develop the skill of deducing vocabulary from context. Practicing, as outlined above, is important. Like any skill, the more you do it, the better and faster at it you get. Until some day you find that (combined with your kanji study) you can often pick up words "on the fly" in a conversation and turn around and use them right back at your conversation partner, who won't have a clue that that was the first time in your life you had ever heard it.

11. When choosing words to memorize, ask yourself "Do I normally use the English equivalent of this word?". If the answer is "No.", then leave the word for later. You have more important stuff to remember.

12. Given a choice of learning 10 new nouns or 1 new verb.....learn the verb.

13. Given a choice of learning 10 new verbs or mastering one new verb tense.....learn the verb tense.

You can pick up nouns during a conversation relatively easily, either by pointing, drawing, or describing. Anyway, in Japanese you can often be a bit vague and there are techniques for getting around using the noun (at times). It is not so easy to pick up a new verb during the conversation. It is much more difficult to try to work out new verb tenses from the conversation. Japanese verb conjugations are very regular. So that if you learn a new tense/conjugation, it is very very easy to apply it to every verb you already know. If you know more tenses and verbs, you can often describe the noun you want to know and have your partner teach it to you on the spot.

14. Making mistakes goes with the territory. Not being able to recall a certain word or tense during a conversation and them suddenly remembering it just after the conversation is over is normal. It happens to everybody. Go ahead, chastize yourself. Feel stupid. That's good for you. It makes you more determined not to let that happen again. With enough practice and enough times of this happening, they do start to gradually decrease.

15. "wa" and "ga" confuse the hell out of everybody. Don't feel like the Lone Ranger. With "ni" , "de", and "wo", you are on more solid ground and can expect someday to get a very firm handle on them. It'll come, you'll get it.

16. During the drills, if your mind goes blank on you....let it. But continue with the drills. Just go with the flow. Trust your first instinct and you'll be surprised to find that quite often it is correct.

17. Unless you're studying for a graded course....study only as long as it's fun. The second it starts to feel like work, put it down and leave it for a day or two. Haven't studied for a few weeks/months? Don't feel bad, just go back at it. Rome wasn't built in a day. Presumably when you decided to study Japanese you had in mind the goal of becoming somewhat proficient in it. It's sort of hard to reach that goal if you let yourself develop a hatred of the language while in pursuit of your goal.

18. For kanji recall I recommend using some sort of small reference book (not a textbook, or perhaps in conjunction with a text book)

* Start at the beginning. Read the section about stroke order and stroke count. It looks like bullshit now, but if later you ever need to look up kanji in a dictionary, this will be a very valuable skill.
* Use your finger and trace out the kanji on your palm, thigh, whatever. Do that several times, envision it.
* Try to remember at least one meaning, one reading, or both.
* Make sure to remember whether a reading is a "kun" or an "on" reading. This will come in handy later.
* Get a piece of notebook paper, use a ruler to mark it off in grids big enough to hold one kanji each.
* On the paper, write every kanji you can think of. Go until you just can't go anymore.
* Now, go back through your little handy reference book and see which ones you missed. Mentally kick your own butt.
* Wait a while and do it all over again. Hopefully you will have gotten the ones you forgot on the previous go. If you work on this diligently, you should be able to increase your recall dramatically, perhaps to over 90% of all the kanji you have learned.

This was posted by Mike Cash, written in 1997. The original thread is [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11804&start=0 here]

[[Category:TheJapanesePage.Com]]

Advice on Learning Japanese

Coco — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 14:47:42 GMT

Coco:

1. If you have any choice about which textbook to use: I recommend "[[Learn Japanese: New College Text]]". This text is in four volumes (tapes available) and is published by the University of Hawaii Press. They are far superior to any of the "Learn Japanese in 10 Minutes a Day" type texts you will find. Special order them if necessary. I have encountered people who hate the text I recommend. Admittedly, it has been several years since I actively studied Japanese. There are very likely better texts available today. Search the web. Talk to people who are currently studying.

2. Whatever texts/materials you may use...DO NOT skip over the part about pronunciation. Japanese has only 5 vowel sounds. Make sure you aren't using any others. Good habits developed at this point will pay off later. There is no use working and memorizing words with the wrong pronunciations. This will only cause others trouble understanding you and you trouble understanding them.

3. Here are some things that tend to throw many English speakers about Japanese...

* There are no articles (a, an, the)
* In general, there are no plurals
* The present tense and the future tense are one and the same
* Adjectives conjugate, they have negative forms and past tenses just like verbs do
* The subject of the sentence can often be left out, as can other parts.
* There is no particular need to speak in "complete sentences" (From an English speaker's way of thinking)
* Some grammatical markers can be left out of the sentences if they are obvious
* Japanese has LOTS of pronouns and avoids using them whenever possible
* There are two ways of saying every verb, grammatically the same, but having different "politeness levels"
* There is a "continuative tense", so that in a string of verbs, only the final one need show whether the entire sequence is in the present/future tense or in the past tense.

4. Do the drills. No matter how boring they may be, do them. Hard work now internalizing these patterns pays off later in being able to use them without particularly thinking about them.

5. When you have a firm grasp of how to use a structure correctly, create tons of sentences using it yourself. Your goal is to be able to speak, and hopefully to speak correctly. Make a sentence in your head (or out loud) and drill yourself in every possible permutation of it that you are certain you can use correctly. DO NOT do this with structures you aren't sure about. This ties in with #4 above. Too many people avoid this, thinking it to be too much bother. Stepping away from the textbook drills and making your own original sentences mirrors exactly what you will have to do in real-life situations. Do it now and do it often. Then actual conversations where you have to make every statement yourself from scratch, and not merely rearrange a textbook drill sentence will go so much more smoothly and be so much more enjoyable. If you think it's too much trouble now, when no pressure is on you, do you really think it will be any easier in an actual conversation?

6. If you see a couple of words which to you look/sound very similar, ABSOLUTELY DO NOT attempt to learn them on the same day. They will be confused in your head for years. Learn one now and leave the other for a week or so.

7. No matter what a pain it is...learn to read/write the hiragana and katakana systems as soon as you can. If you really seriously want to progress in your studies, there is no avoiding it. Also, start to learn the kanji as soon as possible. Don't rush it or burn yourself out, but don't neglect it either. A good knowledge of kanji will help you not only in reading, but also help you to figure out new words you encounter in conversations. It is said that fire is both man's best friend and his worst enemy. Kanji can be either your best friend or your worst enemy in studying Japanese. Make friends with them as early as you can. You'll be glad you did. Wishing they didn't exist will NOT make them go away. Being illiterate in a highly literate society is no damned fun. If you are or will be in Japan, life will be much easier if you can read things for yourself rather than relying on a Japanese to hold your hand and wipe your linguistic butt for you.

8. When you start to lose heart at your progress, turn back and look at Lesson 1 or Lesson 2. Try to remember when that lesson was kicking your butt the same way the lesson you are on now is kicking it now. You'll get it. Back off and give your subconscious a couple of days to work on it. It'll be easier to understand when you come back to it. It is extremely hard to see your own progress because you are bogged down in whatever the lesson at hand is. Sometimes you need to turn around and look how far you've come.

9. Do try to avoid what everyone seems to get into to some degree...making Japanese ability a contest. You speak as well as you speak...I speak as well as I speak. We're all going the same place and it is not a race. So some other guy knows a couple hundred kanji but katakana still has you breaking out in cold sweats...don't worry about it. I can read well over a thousand kanji and I remember very clearly when I thought that even having to learn a hundred would surely burst my brain. Of course, I've been at it for over a decade now. If you work on it that long, you don't have to be a genius to pick them up. On the other hand, you would have to be pretty stupid not to (especially if you were in Japan the entire time)

10. Dictionaries are crutches. Try to learn to walk without them if you can. If you are using them to look up a Japanese word that you have run across, first make your best guess about what the word means. Look at the situation the word is used in. Use all the knowledge you have of Japanese grammar to at least deduce what the part of speech is. Apply common sense. Figure out what is possible. Narrow it down to your best couple of choices. THEN look it up. See if your idea was right. If it was, you feel like a genius. If it wasn't right, that's OK too. Now you go back over your reasoning and see where you went wrong. Try to keep that situation and that usage in mind. If you hear the same word later in a different situation, try to figure out what those situations have in common.

It is important to develop the skill of deducing vocabulary from context. Practicing, as outlined above, is important. Like any skill, the more you do it, the better and faster at it you get. Until some day you find that (combined with your kanji study) you can often pick up words "on the fly" in a conversation and turn around and use them right back at your conversation partner, who won't have a clue that that was the first time in your life you had ever heard it.

11. When choosing words to memorize, ask yourself "Do I normally use the English equivalent of this word?". If the answer is "No.", then leave the word for later. You have more important stuff to remember.

12. Given a choice of learning 10 new nouns or 1 new verb.....learn the verb.

13. Given a choice of learning 10 new verbs or mastering one new verb tense.....learn the verb tense.

You can pick up nouns during a conversation relatively easily, either by pointing, drawing, or describing. Anyway, in Japanese you can often be a bit vague and there are techniques for getting around using the noun (at times). It is not so easy to pick up a new verb during the conversation. It is much more difficult to try to work out new verb tenses from the conversation. Japanese verb conjugations are very regular. So that if you learn a new tense/conjugation, it is very very easy to apply it to every verb you already know. If you know more tenses and verbs, you can often describe the noun you want to know and have your partner teach it to you on the spot.

14. Making mistakes goes with the territory. Not being able to recall a certain word or tense during a conversation and them suddenly remembering it just after the conversation is over is normal. It happens to everybody. Go ahead, chastize yourself. Feel stupid. That's good for you. It makes you more determined not to let that happen again. With enough practice and enough times of this happening, they do start to gradually decrease.

15. "wa" and "ga" confuse the hell out of everybody. Don't feel like the Lone Ranger. With "ni" , "de", and "wo", you are on more solid ground and can expect someday to get a very firm handle on them. It'll come, you'll get it.

16. During the drills, if your mind goes blank on you....let it. But continue with the drills. Just go with the flow. Trust your first instinct and you'll be surprised to find that quite often it is correct.

17. Unless you're studying for a graded course....study only as long as it's fun. The second it starts to feel like work, put it down and leave it for a day or two. Haven't studied for a few weeks/months? Don't feel bad, just go back at it. Rome wasn't built in a day. Presumably when you decided to study Japanese you had in mind the goal of becoming somewhat proficient in it. It's sort of hard to reach that goal if you let yourself develop a hatred of the language while in pursuit of your goal.

18. For kanji recall I recommend using some sort of small reference book (not a textbook, or perhaps in conjunction with a text book)

* Start at the beginning. Read the section about stroke order and stroke count. It looks like bullshit now, but if later you ever need to look up kanji in a dictionary, this will be a very valuable skill.
* Use your finger and trace out the kanji on your palm, thigh, whatever. Do that several times, envision it.
* Try to remember at least one meaning, one reading, or both.
* Make sure to remember whether a reading is a "kun" or an "on" reading. This will come in handy later.
* Get a piece of notebook paper, use a ruler to mark it off in grids big enough to hold one kanji each.
* On the paper, write every kanji you can think of. Go until you just can't go anymore.
* Now, go back through your little handy reference book and see which ones you missed. Mentally kick your own butt.
* Wait a while and do it all over again. Hopefully you will have gotten the ones you forgot on the previous go. If you work on this diligently, you should be able to increase your recall dramatically, perhaps to over 90% of all the kanji you have learned.

This was posted by Mike Cash, the original thread is [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11804&start=0 here]

[[Category:TheJapanesePage.Com]]

Advice on Learning Japanese

Coco — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 14:44:10 GMT

Coco:

1. If you have any choice about which textbook to use: I recommend "Learn Japanese: New College Text". This text is in four volumes (tapes available) and is published by the University of Hawaii Press. They are far superior to any of the "Learn Japanese in 10 Minutes a Day" type texts you will find. Special order them if necessary. I have encountered people who hate the text I recommend. Admittedly, it has been several years since I actively studied Japanese. There are very likely better texts available today. Search the web. Talk to people who are currently studying.

2. Whatever texts/materials you may use...DO NOT skip over the part about pronunciation. Japanese has only 5 vowel sounds. Make sure you aren't using any others. Good habits developed at this point will pay off later. There is no use working and memorizing words with the wrong pronunciations. This will only cause others trouble understanding you and you trouble understanding them.

3. Here are some things that tend to throw many English speakers about Japanese...

* There are no articles (a, an, the)
* In general, there are no plurals
* The present tense and the future tense are one and the same
* Adjectives conjugate, they have negative forms and past tenses just like verbs do
* The subject of the sentence can often be left out, as can other parts.
* There is no particular need to speak in "complete sentences" (From an English speaker's way of thinking)
* Some grammatical markers can be left out of the sentences if they are obvious
* Japanese has LOTS of pronouns and avoids using them whenever possible
* There are two ways of saying every verb, grammatically the same, but having different "politeness levels"
* There is a "continuative tense", so that in a string of verbs, only the final one need show whether the entire sequence is in the present/future tense or in the past tense.

4. Do the drills. No matter how boring they may be, do them. Hard work now internalizing these patterns pays off later in being able to use them without particularly thinking about them.

5. When you have a firm grasp of how to use a structure correctly, create tons of sentences using it yourself. Your goal is to be able to speak, and hopefully to speak correctly. Make a sentence in your head (or out loud) and drill yourself in every possible permutation of it that you are certain you can use correctly. DO NOT do this with structures you aren't sure about. This ties in with #4 above. Too many people avoid this, thinking it to be too much bother. Stepping away from the textbook drills and making your own original sentences mirrors exactly what you will have to do in real-life situations. Do it now and do it often. Then actual conversations where you have to make every statement yourself from scratch, and not merely rearrange a textbook drill sentence will go so much more smoothly and be so much more enjoyable. If you think it's too much trouble now, when no pressure is on you, do you really think it will be any easier in an actual conversation?

6. If you see a couple of words which to you look/sound very similar, ABSOLUTELY DO NOT attempt to learn them on the same day. They will be confused in your head for years. Learn one now and leave the other for a week or so.

7. No matter what a pain it is...learn to read/write the hiragana and katakana systems as soon as you can. If you really seriously want to progress in your studies, there is no avoiding it. Also, start to learn the kanji as soon as possible. Don't rush it or burn yourself out, but don't neglect it either. A good knowledge of kanji will help you not only in reading, but also help you to figure out new words you encounter in conversations. It is said that fire is both man's best friend and his worst enemy. Kanji can be either your best friend or your worst enemy in studying Japanese. Make friends with them as early as you can. You'll be glad you did. Wishing they didn't exist will NOT make them go away. Being illiterate in a highly literate society is no damned fun. If you are or will be in Japan, life will be much easier if you can read things for yourself rather than relying on a Japanese to hold your hand and wipe your linguistic butt for you.

8. When you start to lose heart at your progress, turn back and look at Lesson 1 or Lesson 2. Try to remember when that lesson was kicking your butt the same way the lesson you are on now is kicking it now. You'll get it. Back off and give your subconscious a couple of days to work on it. It'll be easier to understand when you come back to it. It is extremely hard to see your own progress because you are bogged down in whatever the lesson at hand is. Sometimes you need to turn around and look how far you've come.

9. Do try to avoid what everyone seems to get into to some degree...making Japanese ability a contest. You speak as well as you speak...I speak as well as I speak. We're all going the same place and it is not a race. So some other guy knows a couple hundred kanji but katakana still has you breaking out in cold sweats...don't worry about it. I can read well over a thousand kanji and I remember very clearly when I thought that even having to learn a hundred would surely burst my brain. Of course, I've been at it for over a decade now. If you work on it that long, you don't have to be a genius to pick them up. On the other hand, you would have to be pretty stupid not to (especially if you were in Japan the entire time)

10. Dictionaries are crutches. Try to learn to walk without them if you can. If you are using them to look up a Japanese word that you have run across, first make your best guess about what the word means. Look at the situation the word is used in. Use all the knowledge you have of Japanese grammar to at least deduce what the part of speech is. Apply common sense. Figure out what is possible. Narrow it down to your best couple of choices. THEN look it up. See if your idea was right. If it was, you feel like a genius. If it wasn't right, that's OK too. Now you go back over your reasoning and see where you went wrong. Try to keep that situation and that usage in mind. If you hear the same word later in a different situation, try to figure out what those situations have in common.

It is important to develop the skill of deducing vocabulary from context. Practicing, as outlined above, is important. Like any skill, the more you do it, the better and faster at it you get. Until some day you find that (combined with your kanji study) you can often pick up words "on the fly" in a conversation and turn around and use them right back at your conversation partner, who won't have a clue that that was the first time in your life you had ever heard it.

11. When choosing words to memorize, ask yourself "Do I normally use the English equivalent of this word?". If the answer is "No.", then leave the word for later. You have more important stuff to remember.

12. Given a choice of learning 10 new nouns or 1 new verb.....learn the verb.

13. Given a choice of learning 10 new verbs or mastering one new verb tense.....learn the verb tense.

You can pick up nouns during a conversation relatively easily, either by pointing, drawing, or describing. Anyway, in Japanese you can often be a bit vague and there are techniques for getting around using the noun (at times). It is not so easy to pick up a new verb during the conversation. It is much more difficult to try to work out new verb tenses from the conversation. Japanese verb conjugations are very regular. So that if you learn a new tense/conjugation, it is very very easy to apply it to every verb you already know. If you know more tenses and verbs, you can often describe the noun you want to know and have your partner teach it to you on the spot.

14. Making mistakes goes with the territory. Not being able to recall a certain word or tense during a conversation and them suddenly remembering it just after the conversation is over is normal. It happens to everybody. Go ahead, chastize yourself. Feel stupid. That's good for you. It makes you more determined not to let that happen again. With enough practice and enough times of this happening, they do start to gradually decrease.

15. "wa" and "ga" confuse the hell out of everybody. Don't feel like the Lone Ranger. With "ni" , "de", and "wo", you are on more solid ground and can expect someday to get a very firm handle on them. It'll come, you'll get it.

16. During the drills, if your mind goes blank on you....let it. But continue with the drills. Just go with the flow. Trust your first instinct and you'll be surprised to find that quite often it is correct.

17. Unless you're studying for a graded course....study only as long as it's fun. The second it starts to feel like work, put it down and leave it for a day or two. Haven't studied for a few weeks/months? Don't feel bad, just go back at it. Rome wasn't built in a day. Presumably when you decided to study Japanese you had in mind the goal of becoming somewhat proficient in it. It's sort of hard to reach that goal if you let yourself develop a hatred of the language while in pursuit of your goal.

18. For kanji recall I recommend using some sort of small reference book (not a textbook, or perhaps in conjunction with a text book)

* Start at the beginning. Read the section about stroke order and stroke count. It looks like bullshit now, but if later you ever need to look up kanji in a dictionary, this will be a very valuable skill.
* Use your finger and trace out the kanji on your palm, thigh, whatever. Do that several times, envision it.
* Try to remember at least one meaning, one reading, or both.
* Make sure to remember whether a reading is a "kun" or an "on" reading. This will come in handy later.
* Get a piece of notebook paper, use a ruler to mark it off in grids big enough to hold one kanji each.
* On the paper, write every kanji you can think of. Go until you just can't go anymore.
* Now, go back through your little handy reference book and see which ones you missed. Mentally kick your own butt.
* Wait a while and do it all over again. Hopefully you will have gotten the ones you forgot on the previous go. If you work on this diligently, you should be able to increase your recall dramatically, perhaps to over 90% of all the kanji you have learned.

This was posted by Mike Cash, the original thread is [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11804&start=0 here]

[[Category:TheJapanesePage.Com]]

Advice on Learning Japanese

Coco — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 14:42:04 GMT

Coco:

Talk:Conditionals

Coco — Mon, 26 May 2008 01:21:38 GMT

Coco: /* Example 1 */

:Do you want to merge the main article to here, coco?
::Yes, I'd like to merge this article to the main page article, if it's possible. 
:: もし可能なら、この記事をメインページに移動させたいと思います。--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 11:04, 16 July 2007 (EDT)
::: So, a merge from article to discussion, and then a copy and paste from discussion to article. Does that make sense?
:: I copied some part of article about と( gray colored sentences). Did it a way you suggested? :) --[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 03:06, 18 July 2007 (EDT)
:::Yeah, thanks coco. Do you want the conjugation charts in the article?
:I guess making と conditional is very easy because words never conjugate. But it might be kind to put the charts for the beginner. Do you think the conjugation charts is needed?--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 10:36, 22 July 2007 (EDT)　
:::You going any place interesting? [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 19:48, 20 July 2007 (EDT)

=と=
「～と」is used when sentence1 and sentence2 have a constant, repetitive, or continuous relationship. The conditional と expresses a phenomenon that constantly occurs with the condition described in sentence 1. 
と is a subordinate conjunction which makes S1 a condition, and S2 a result. The nuance that is implied by usage of と is this: if the condition of S1 is satisfied, then the result of S2 follows naturally (and will always be true provided S1 holds true).

==Conjugation==
{| class="wikitable"
|
|'''Dictionary form'''
|'''と conjugation'''
|'''Reading'''
|-
|'''Nouns'''
|休日 小学校
|休日だと 小学校だと
|きゅうじつだと しょうがっこうだと
|-
|'''な adjectives'''
|立派な きれいな
|立派だと きれいだと
|りっぱだと きれいだと
|-
|'''い adjectives'''
|いい 大きい
|いいと 大きいと
|いいと おおきいと
|-
|'''Verbs'''
|来る 飲む
|来ると 飲むと
|くると のむと
|}

==Repetitive phenomenon==
===Example 1===
sentence 1: 春になる。 (spring comes) 
sentence 2: 花が咲き始める。 (flowers start to bloom) 
To express the relationship between the two:
:○[春になる]'''と'''[花が咲き始める]。 
:When spring comes, flowers start to bloom. 

You can replace と and たら 
:○春にな<del>る</del><ins>ったら、</ins>花が咲き始める。 

===Example 2===
sentence 1: コインを自動販売機に入れる。 (insert coins in a vending machine) 
sentence 2: ジュースが出てくる。 (juice comes out) 
To express the relationship between the two:
:○[コインを自販機に入れる]'''と'''[ジュースが出てくる]。 
:When you insert your coins in a vending machine, drinks come out. 
Note that 自販機 is an abbreviation of 自動販売機. 

You can put たら instead of と 
:○コインを自販機に入れ<del>る</del><ins>たら、</ins>ジュースが出てくる。 

===Example 3===
sentence 1: 掃除機をかける。 (use a vacuum cleaner) 
sentence 2: ネコが[騒ぐ/怒り出す]。 (cat makes a noise) 
To express the relationship between the two:
:○[掃除機をかける]'''と'''[ネコが騒ぐ/怒り出す]。 
:When you use a vacuum cleaner, the cat makes a noise. 

You can put たら instead of と 
:○掃除機をかけ<del>る</del><ins>たら、</ins>猫が騒ぐ。 

See more usages of [http://thejapanesepage.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Particles conjunction と].

==Personal expressions==
You can ask with ～と for someone's physical condition as a repetitive behavior. 

===Example 1===
sentence 1: リンゴをかじる。 
sentence 2: 歯茎から血がでませんか? 
To express the relationship between the two:
:○リンゴをかじる'''と'''歯茎から血がでませんか? (An advertising slogan from a tooth paste brand.) 
:Don't you get (repeated) bleeding from the gums when you bite an apple? 
Also you can express your physical condition or repetitive behavior under the condition expressed in the sentence 1.

===Example 2===
sentence 1: 春になる。 
sentence 2: クシャミがでる。 
To express the relationship between the two:
:○春になる'''と'''、クシャミがでます。私、花粉症なんです。 
:I sneeze a lot in spring season. I have an allergy to pollen. 

===Example 3===
sentence 1: 寒くなる。 
sentence 2: ミスタードーナツで勉強した。 
To express the relationship between the two:
:○寒くなるとよく[http://www.misterdonut.jp/index.html ミスタードーナツ]で勉強した。(repetitive behavior) 
:When it got cold, I often studied at Mr. Donuts. (From [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=62 this thread].) 
In this case, we rather add [[もの]]だった/[[もの]]でした on the end of sentence to express a speaker's reminiscence. 
:○寒くなると、よくミスタードーナツで勉強したものだった。 
:○寒くなると、よくミスタードーナツで勉強したものでした。 

==Wrong usages of Conditional とsentences ==

You can find a interrelationship easily between sentence1 and sentence2 which are connected with と. 
You can not put following types of sentences after the conditional と. 
ⅰ) speaker's will, wish/hope/desire 
ⅱ) imperative sentence 
ⅲ) request 
Since と represents a natural consequence, it cannot be used when the result S2 is dependent on volitional action of someone. For example, S2 cannot be something like a command, invitation, or suggestion. Here is an example of incorrect usage of と:

===Example 1===
sentence 1: 春になる。 
sentence 2: 花見に行きませんか。(asking invitation) 
:× 春になる'''と'''、花見に行きませんか 
:○ 春になっ'''たら'''、花見に行きませんか。 
:Shall we go to the sakura-watching-party when spring comes? 

sentence 2: 花見に行く予定だ。(telling plan/will) 
:×春になる'''と'''、花見に行く予定だ。 
:○春になっ'''たら'''、花見に行く予定だ。
:I'm planning to go watch sakura flowers when spring comes.

===Example 2===
sentence 1: コインを入れる。 
sentence 2: ボタンを押してください。(request) 
:× コインを入れる'''と''' 、ボタンを押してください。 
:○ コインを入れ'''たら'''、ボタンを押してください。
:Please push a button when/after you insert your coins.

===Example 3===
sentence 1: 掃除機をかける 
sentence 2: 窓を開けた方がいい (suggestion/advice) 
:×掃除機をかける'''と''' 、窓を開けた方がいい。 
:○掃除機をかける'''なら'''、窓を開けた方がいい。
:It would be better to open windows if you use a vacuum cleaner. 
The speaker would say this if it seems you're about to use a vacuum cleaner．If you'd like to say this as a　general consideration,
:○掃除機をかける'''とき(時)は'''、窓を開けた方がいい。 
:It would be better to open windows when you use a vacuum cleaner. 

===Usuful expressions===
そうしない'''と''' = otherwise 
さもない'''と''' (conj,exp) otherwise; else; if not so; KD ( from WWWJDIC)

寒け'''れば'''コートを着なさい。[そうしない'''と'''/さもない'''と''']風邪をひきますよ。(mother's speech)= If you feel cold, put on your overcoat. Otherwise you will catch a cold. 

急いでください。[そうしない'''と'''/さもない'''と''']、会議に間に合いません。=Please hurry or else you/we will be late for the meeting. 

シートペルトをしてください。[そうしない'''と'''/さもない'''と''' ]警察に違反キップを切られますよ。 
Fasten the seatbelt. Otherwise the police will give you a ticket. 

You can make these forms more casual with V+negative+ と. 
(in-group conversation) 
コートを'''着ないと'''風邪ひくよ。 
'''急がないと'''会議に間に合わないよ。 
シートベルトを'''しないと'''おまわりさんに違反キップを切られるよ。 

=なら=
「～なら」is used when a speaker expresses his/her own opinion, judgment, or command which can not be expressed in the 「～と」conditional sentence. 
One of the features of this usage would be the reply to the person's (whom you are talking) topic. When using なら form, you can say your opinions or suggestions about specific suppositions which the person had just mentioned. 

==Conjugation==
{| class="wikitable"
|
|'''Dictionary form'''
|'''なら conjugation'''
|'''Reading'''
|-
|'''Nouns'''
|休日 小学校
|休日なら 小学校なら
|きゅうじつなら しょうがっこうなら
|-
|'''な adjectives'''
|立派な きれいな
|立派なら きれいなら
|りっぱなら きれいなら
|-
|'''い adjectives'''
|いい 大きい
|いい（の/ん）なら 大きい（の/ん）なら
|いい（の/ん）なら おおきい（の/ん）なら
|-
|'''Verbs'''
|来る 飲む
|来る（の/ん）なら 飲む（の/ん）なら
|くる（の/ん）なら のむ（の/ん）なら
|}

===Usages as topic taking ===
e.g. (in-group conversation.)
田中: ''夏休みには''、海外旅行にいきたいな。
Tanaka: I'd like to go abroad during summer vacation.
山田: ''夏休みに行く'''''なら'''、早く予約しない '''と''' 飛行機のチケットがとれなくなるよ。
Yamada : If you go abroad during summer vacation, you'd better hurry to book,
otherwise, you'll miss an airline ticket.

It might have a sound like " I suggest '''as to''' your supposition (in this case the trip during summer vacation)".

「Verb＋なら」 is often interchangeable with 　verb＋の(ん)だったら/verb+ならば.
::'''ん'''だったら is from '''の'''だったら. The particle の(''no'') is often changed into ん(''nn'') in colloquial speech.

e.g
山田:''夏休みに行く''ん'''だったら'''、早く予約しないと飛行機のチケットがとれなくなるよ。(frank)
山田:''夏休みに行く'''''ならば'''、早く予約しないと飛行機のチケットがとれなくなりますよ。( bit solid)

e.g.
高橋: 天気予報によると、週末に ''台風が来る'' らしいですよ。
Takahashi: According to a weather forecast, the typhoon is coming this weekend.
佐藤: そうですか。''台風が来る'''''なら'''、週末は外出しない方がいいかもしれませんね。
Satou : Oh, really? We might not want to go out this weekend if the typhoon will come.

Mr./Ms. Satou might say
佐藤 : そうですか。''台風が来る''ん'''だったら'''、週末は外出しない方がいいかもしれませんね。
佐藤 : そうですか。''台風が来る'''''ならば'''、週末は外出しない方がいいかもしれませんね。

===Usages as topic making===
Also you can provide a topic using the なら form, which is not a response speech.

e.g. (in-group) 
もし僕がマイケル・ジャクソン'''なら'''、チンパンジーじゃなくて、イルカを飼うな。 
もし僕がマイケル・ジャクソン'''だったら'''、チンパンジーじゃなくてイルカを飼うな。 
If I were Michael Jackson, I would keep a dolphin rather than a chimpanzee as a pet.

===Usages as limited condition ===
e.g. 
山本さんは豚肉'''なら'''食べられますが、牛肉は食べられません。 
山本さんは豚肉'''でしたら'''召し上がりますが、牛肉は召し上がりません。more polite expression 
Ms./Mr. Yamamoto can eat it if it is pork, but can't eat beef. 
The meaning is almost the same as 山本さんは豚肉'''は'''食べられますが、牛肉は食べられません。( Ms./Mr.Yamanoto can eat pork, but cannot eat beef.) However you can emphasis what food Yamamoto-san can eat or not by using なら. 
e.g. 
今日は会えませんが、明日の午後'''なら'''会えます。 
Although I'm not available today, I will be able to meet you/someone if it is tomorrow afternoon. 
This is almost the same as 今日は会えませんが、明日の午後'''は'''会えます。Using なら has the nuance of limited condition, like saying "tomorrow afternoon only". 

=ば(eba)=
==Conjugation==
{| class="wikitable"
|
|'''Dictionary form'''
|'''ば conjugation'''
|'''Reading'''
|-
|'''Nouns'''
|休日 小学校
|休日なら（ば） 小学校なら（ば）
|きゅうじつなら（ば） しょうがっこうなら（ば）
|-
|'''な adjectives'''
|立派な きれいな
|立派なら（ば） きれいなら（ば）
|りっぱなら（ば） きれいなら（ば）
|-
|'''い adjectives'''
|いい 大きい
|よければ 大きければ
|よければ おおきければ
|-
|'''Irregular verbs'''
|来る 勉強する
|来れば 勉強すれば
|くれば べんきょうすれば
|-
|'''Ichidan verbs'''
|あげる 食べる
|あげれば 食べれば
|あげれば たべれば
|-
|'''Godan verbs'''
|もらう 言う
|もらえば 言えば
|もらえば いえば
|}

==Examples==
A requirement/conditions to make a status of sentence 2 is placed in sentence 1.
:What's the Japanese for this sentence? [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 20:46, 18 August 2007 (EDT)
:: I couldn't understand what I wanted to say ＾＾　 probably
:::「文2の状態を構成する要件/条件が、文1に置かれます。」--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 08:19, 21 August 2007 (EDT)
:::: May I suggest: "A precondition of sentence 2 is placed in sentence 1."

::It sounds great. Thanks.
::Now I notice my explanation is not a feature of ば. It would apply to all conditionals. I mean my explanation was bad. 
::: Your explanations are very helpful and appreciated.
:::: As another question, is ば conditional [http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%90%8C%E5%80%A4 "if and only if"] or just "if"? [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 14:24, 21 August 2007 (EDT)
::I think ならば could have a nuance of " only if". I suppose it might be ～の場合に限って. What do you think about ～さえ + ば～ form. (これはJLPT 2級文法です。) 
::For example; 
::田中さん'''さえ'''飛行機に乗り遅れなけ'''れば'''、今ごろはみんなハワイに着いているのになぁ。 
::: If only Tanaka had made it, we'd be in Hawaii right about now. (?)
::水'''さえ'''飲んでい'''れば'''、人間は30日も生きられるらしい。 
::: If you just drink water, you can live 30 days. (?)
:: Do you think さえ+ ば would be " (if and)only if " ?

::On the other hand, 塵も積もれば山となる, 降れば土砂降り、犬もあるけば棒にあたる don't have its meaning. Also ば in " 3時になれば、(先生がいらっしゃいます。)" would not be " if and only if ".
::So, " if and only if" might not be an explanation of ば. 
::Would these be a sort of answer? Or am I misreading your question? --[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 09:38, 22 August 2007 (EDT)
:::わかりました。「ばconditional」、「iff」のような表現じゃなさそうですね。ご説明ありがとうございます。
:::
::: Intended: I see, So it sounds like the ば conditional isn't iff. Thanks for your explanation. [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 20:29, 22 August 2007 (EDT)

1) 
sentence 1 (postulation)= 天気がいい sentence 2 = 東京からも富士山が見える。 
天気がよけれ'''ば''' 、東京からも富士山が見えます。 
You can see Mt.Fuji from even Tokyo if the weather is clear. 
(You might not be able to see Mt.Fuji from Tokyo if the weather isn't clear.) 
:Both of these sentences sound good. [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 20:46, 18 August 2007 (EDT)
:: ありがとうございます。--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 08:19, 21 August 2007 (EDT)
This is very similar to ～と usage because the presupposition expressed in the sentence 1 forms the status expressed in sentence 2, has a repetitive interrelationship. 
So you can say

天気がいい'''と''' 、東京からも富士山が見えます。 
晴れてい'''れば'''、東京からも富士山が見えます。 
晴れている'''と''' 、東京からも富士山が見えます。 

2) 
sentence 1 = 3時になる sentence 2 = 岡田先生が来る (いらっしゃる is the 尊敬語 of 来る.) 

3時にな'''れば'''、岡田先生がいらっしゃいます。 
Professor Okada will come here when it is 3 o'clock. 
You　can say also 
3時になる'''と'''、岡田先生がいらっしゃいます。 
When it is 3 o'clock, professor Okada comes here． 

「3時になる'''と''' 、岡田先生がいらっしゃいます。」implies that the professor repetitively comes up there at 3:00 every day. Meanwhile, 「3時にな'''れば'''、岡田先生がいらっしゃいます」means the speaker knows the professor's schedule on that day, does't mention the other days.

3) 
sentence 1( postulation)= 雨が降る。 sentence 2 = 花火大会は中止。 
雨が降'''れば'''、花火大会は中止です。 
The fireworks exhibition won't be held if it rains. 
:Good. [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 20:50, 18 August 2007 (EDT)
:: ありがとう。--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 08:19, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

「雨が降る'''と'''、花火大会は中止されます」rather has a tone of something like an empirical rule.( e.g.: Generally, fireworks exhibitions are canceled when it rains.) But 「雨が降'''れば'''、花火大会は中止です」 mentions about "The fireworks exhibition" which you are anxious about.

4) 
You can express a contrary-to-fact condition by using conditional ば. In this case sentence 2 is always the past tense.
:Pick either:
::express a contrary-to-fact condition
::express contrary-to-fact conditions
:[[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 21:00, 18 August 2007 (EDT)
::: 修正しました。ありがとう。--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 08:19, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

30分早く起き'''れば'''、飛行機の出発時間に間に合'''った'''。 
If I got up 30 minutes earlier, I would have been in time for the departure of the airplane. ( But I failed to catch the flight). 
:If I got up 30 minutes earlier, I would have been in time for the departure of the airplane.
:
:Also,
::"catch up with the flight" sounds a little better. "catch the flight" is good too. [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 21:08, 18 August 2007 (EDT)
::: ありがとうございます。--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 08:19, 21 August 2007 (EDT)
In this case, adding のに on the end of the sentence can express your feelings stronger. 
30分早く起き'''れば'''、飛行機の出発時間に間に合'''った'''のに。

雨が降っていなけ'''れば'''、花火がみられ'''た'''のに。
If it didn't rain, I would have been able to see the fireworks.( But I failed to see the fireworks.)
:I'll let you correct this sentence using the word "would". :) [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 21:08, 18 August 2007 (EDT)
:: "If it didn't rain, I would have been able to see the fireworks." (?)
:: I hope the day of the fireworks won't rain so that I wouldn't have to use this usage. :) --[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 08:19, 21 August 2007 (EDT)
::: Hehe, well done though. [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 14:30, 21 August 2007 (EDT)
::ありがとう。＾＾修正しました。--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 09:38, 22 August 2007 (EDT)

=== wrong usages of ～ば form===

You can not use ～ば(eba) form in that kind of situations: 

1) the accidental events 
×商店街を歩いていれば、雨に降られた。 
○商店街を歩いていたら、雨に降られた。 
When I was walking through the shopping mall, rain fell over me. (?) 

×新聞を読んでいれば、おもしろい記事をみつけた。 
○新聞を読んでいたら、おもしろい記事をみつけた。 
I found an interesting article when/while I was reading a news paper.(?) 

2) directions (after someone satisfied the conditions.) 
×この伝言を聞'''けば'''、電話をください。 
○この伝言を聞い'''たら'''、電話をください。 
Please call me back after you checked this message. <be>

×報告書が完成す'''れば'''、すぐに提出してください。 
○報告書が完成し'''たら'''、すぐに提出してください。 
Please submit your report as soon as you made up it.(?)/ Please submit your report immediately when you finished it.(?)

*「～ば」 forms in the proverbs.
降'''れば'''土砂降(どしゃぶ)り。= It doesn't rain but it pours. 
ちり(塵)も積も'''れば'''山となる。= Penny and penny laid up will be many. /Many small make a great. 
犬も歩'''けば'''棒にあたる。= The beast that goes always never wants blows./The dog that trots about finds a bone./A flying crow always catches something.

* Useful expressions (probably) 
You can ask " how can I do/how shold I do" with どうす'''れば'''. 
どうすれば、[きっぷ/チケット]を安く買えますか? = How can I buy the ticket cheaper? (?)(*Generally チケットis used for flight tickets, きっぷ is used for train tickets.) 
どうすれば、そこに泊まれますか? = How can I stay over nights there? (?) 
どうすれば、そこに行けるのかわかりません。= I don't know how I can get there.(?) 
どうすれば、パンディオンをインストールできるのかわかりません。= I don't know what to do to install the Pandion. (?) 
どうすればいいか、教えてください。= Please tell me how shold I do.(?) 

=たら=
「～たら」 is widely used as a conditional form.

e.g. 
15歳の頃の自分と対面できるとし'''たら'''、言っておきたいことは? 
If you were able to meet with yourself aged around 15 years old, what would you like to say to her/him? (?)

In this case
○15歳の頃の自分と対面できる'''なら''' 
○15歳の頃の自分と対面できるとす'''れば''' 
×15歳の頃の自分と対面できる'''と''' 

1日がもし25時間だっ'''たら'''、その1時間で何をしますか? 
If one day had 25hours, what will you do during the extra hour? (?) 
In this case 
○1日がもし25時間'''なら'''/'''ならば''' (→ See なら uesge above) 
○1日がもし25時間だとす'''れば''' 
×1日がもし25時間だと 

===Difference between なら and たら (tense)===

Please care the tense, otherwise the turn goes upside down.

大学に<ins>入る</ins>'''なら'''、本をたくさん読みなさい。(more about [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4447 なさい])
大学に<ins>入る</ins>ん'''だったら'''、本をたくさん読みなさい。
大学に<ins>入る</ins>のであ'''れば'''、本をたくさん読みなさい。
Read tons of books if you are going to a university/college.(?)
All of these are saying same things. This is an advice/suggestion to read books for the preparation of an enrollment.　

大学に<ins>入った</ins>'''ら'''、本をたくさん読みなさい。
Read tons of books when you go to a university/college.(?)
Read tons of books when you become a university/college student.(?)

This is an advice/suggestion to undergraduate students/college student. A speaker don't mention about the preparation for an enrollment. Just advises your attitude for learning as a college/university student. 

The following slogan, which is used as an prohibition campaign of drinkers' driving, would be good to learn the difference between なら and たら/だら.

「飲ん'''だら'''乗るな、乗る'''なら'''飲むな!」
Do not drive a car when you've been drinking,
and do not drink (any alcohol) if you are going to drive a car.

飲ん'''だら''' is the conditional of posteriority. This command mentions "after your action(= drank some alcohol)". 
乗る'''なら''' is the conditional of " your intention". This sentence directs something before you act(= drive a car) 

* Useful expression ( probably) 
'''～したらどうですか'''＝　How about if ～/why don't you ～ 
もう少し早い電車で行っ'''たら'''、どうですか? 
How about if we/I/you take( took?) the earier train to get there? (?) 
そのホテルで２泊し'''たら'''、どうですか? 
How about if I/we/you stay( stayed?) two nights at that hotel? (?) 
帰りを飛行機ではなく、夜行バスに'''したら'''どうですか？ 
How about if I/we/you take ( took?) the midnight bus instead of the flight as a return trip? (?)
::[http://thejapanesepage.com/w/index.php?title=Grammar_page_5#How..._.E3.81.A9.E3.81.86 See also どう]
::[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8201&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15 Shin1ro-san's] post.

Talk:TJP Shibboleths

Coco — Mon, 26 May 2008 00:36:46 GMT

Coco: /* thanks rich */

How about adding Akiru's "I was born and raised in Japan"?

Something on Tony as パパ would do nicely too. [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 18:45, 5 July 2007 (EDT)

:Believe it or not, I did originally consider putting パパ on the list. However, to be a shibboleth, a word or phrase has to reach a certain standard of common use, right now only SS-san and Coco-san call Tony パパ that I have seen, which makes the word more of a personal quirk shared between the two of them. Same with "I was born and raised..." I don't recall seeing other posters use it.

:I do want to clarify that this page was not created to facilitate the artificial creation of new shibboleths, but to reveal ones created naturally from community experience. Exclusive communities create shibboleths to exclude new members from an "elite" inner-circle and keep them there. Since TJP is an inclusive community that seeks to teach and raise others up and not exclude from some inner-circle, I would be terribly disappointed if the creation of this page were used for that purpose.--[[User:Infidel|Infidel]] 00:11, 6 July 2007 (EDT)

== thanks rich ==

The original thread was with Keatonatron. It was the OP that thanked the person answering after keat. Kinda funny, I've been looking for an opportunity to do this again, but keat rarely chimes in first anymore. I wouldn't say the tradition is to thank Rich, rather it's to thank the second correct reply and ignore the first. It just works out to be Rich a lot. :D

- Yeah, it doesn't necessarily have to be Rich, I guess, but it's more fun when it's him! Where's the original thread anyway? I refuse to believe it's been lost in cyberspace.--[[User:Tanuki|Tanuki]] 18:56, 27 September 2007 (EDT)

-I tried giving a try, but there are just too many posts by the involved parties. This problem is aggravated because Google cached many pages where keat and rich never posted but were logged in, so their names showed up in the "Users Online" window. Why don't you give it a try. He only has over 3800 posts.

-- I've found [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5823 the Original thread.]--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 20:36, 25 May 2008 (EDT)

User:Gundaetiapo

Coco — Wed, 02 Apr 2008 01:30:27 GMT

Coco: /* Live action */ Link

==Things to remember==
* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9120 Mike Cash's post] regarding ように見える.
* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?forum_id=7&t=9299 Yudan's post] regarding い type adjectives with き ending.
* Do (verb1)　 instead of 　(verb 2) ing 　　(V2)　もせずに　(V1)　している。
* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9305 が in negative sentences].
* 「… ということです(よ)ね。」 (… ってことです(よ)ね) is useful phrase. When you think you understand what the speaker said but still need to confirm his/her intention, ですよね/ですね is used. If you are still not sure what the speaker meant, ということですか? is suitable.
* Basically か is pretty rough when used in plain sentences. だい and かい are a bit less harsh. Note that かい is for yes/no questions while だい is for what/who/which type 'wh' questions.
* Oyaji's post about しらない with "don't come crying to me" translation.
* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9962 jt's explanation] of も and でも here is interesting.
* richv says: The time when you have to use て form to chain adjectives is when they are the predicate. When they are modifying a following noun, all the adjectives (save the final one, immediately preceding the noun) can be in either い/な or くて/で form.
:○あのウサギは怖くて悪い 
:×あのウサギは怖い悪い 
:○あの怖くて悪いウサギ 
:○あの怖い悪いウサギ 
* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10528&sid=0ab43835ee58e067ea5162af91e0b4bc Useful thread] on それにしても, それにしたは.

===ことにある vs ことである===
>>こうした著しい変化の鍵は、ちょうど生後2カ月を過ぎた頃、 
>>動きが減ってしまったことにあると多賀さんは考えています。

To find a grammar construction easier, look at this sentence.

人口減少の理由は、結婚する年齢が上がってしまったことにある。 
You can say this as 
人口減少の理由は、結婚年齢の高齢化にある。

変化の鍵は、動きが減ったことにある。 
As you know, this こと makes a verb into a noun. 
Therefore you can interpret this as 
変化の鍵は、動きの減少にある。 
The key (factor) for changes is (found) in the decreasing of motions. (?)

On the other hand, ことである is used like " X means Y". 
外国語を学ぶ（という）ことは、その国の文化を学ぶことである。 
To learn a foreign language is to learn its culture.(?) 
To learn a foreign language means to learn its culture.(?)

==Media of interest==
Some media that I want to check out at some point in the future.

===Anime===
* Mushishi
* Daa daa daa, with Japanese subtitles, might make good listening comprehension because of it's young target audience.
* あらしのよるに

===Manga===
* Ranma 1/2, currently reading.

===Live action===
Some of these films might be too difficult for me, so I'm not sure whether to go for English or Japanese subtitles yet.
* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=9798 Always]
* Samurai trilogy

===Video games===
* Chrono Trigger, my favorite video game, might make a good choice as first Japanese video game to play.
* Star Ocean, played the first portion from an unofficial English version and it was really fun. Playing the game all the way through in the Japanese version is a possible goal.

Talk:Learning Japanese from media

Coco — Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:23:26 GMT

Coco:

==Discuss section: Pitfalls==
I added descriptions of each crude word. I'm not sure if all the words for "you" are equal in aggressiveness or if they're graduated. [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 16:54, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

I wonder if we should make this a "Wiki project". I think that's how Wikipedia manages logical groupings of articles. [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 16:54, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

I've been on Wikis that allow an undo option. Do you have that coco san? Are there any moderators for the Wiki? [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 21:41, 21 March 2008 (EDT)

Excuse me, but what is "undo" option? I think Zen-san is only one who can manage this wagawiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Limit_the_undo_function this?
I don't have. --[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 03:23, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

Talk:Learning Japanese from media

Coco — Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:17:24 GMT

Coco:

Just the FAQs

Coco — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 12:35:36 GMT

Coco: /* What are the Forum rules? */

== Questions about TheJapanesePage.com ==

=== How do you get the avatar picture to appear under your username? ===

You can upload an avatar on your [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/edit_profile.php Edit Profile] page.

The avatar has to be 100x100 or smaller, and in either a format of .jpg, .gif or .png. If its not that small or the wrong format, then you can stick it in paint and adjust it that way. It should also be 20kb or smaller, this may be a problem with animated gifs.

If your image does not fit the regulation size, it will appear as a broken image. If you are having trouble with the image and one of the dimensions is 100px, try changing it to 99px. Also be sure that its file type is the same as given in the file name (renaming .art to .gif does '''not''' make an AOL picture into a .gif one).

=== How do I make a signature with a picture? ===

First of all you have to have a picture that fits the space allowed (100x400 pixels).

When you have a picture you want to use in your signature you have to upload it to an image hosting site. There are many free sites on the internet where you can upload and host your image. For instance: http://imageshack.us

When you’re done uploading your picture you get a link. As an example:
<pre>http://www.example.com/mysignatureimage.jpg</pre>
or something like that.

Edit your signature on your [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/edit_profile.php Edit Profile] page, add the following code (using your link of course):

<pre>[img]http://www.example.com/mysignatureimage.jpg[/img]</pre>

Remember that sig. graphics on the forum are limited to 100 pixels in height and 400 pixels in length. If you upload a larger image, you will quickly get messages asking you to alter or remove it.

=== What is the Shoutbox for? ===

Read about the Shoutbox [[Shoutbox|here]].

=== What are the Forum rules? ===

Read about the Forum posting rules [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=13 here] and [[Forum Etiquette]].

== Questions about using Japanese on my computer ==
=== Setting up a Mac OS X for Japanese ===

Japanese is built-in, and already loaded. You just have to activate it.

Navigate to [apple logo] -> System Preferences -> International -> Language

If you don't see "日本語" listed under the "Language" tab, click the "Edit List..." button. Scroll through the list and check the box next to "日本語".

Next, click the "Input Menu" tab. Scroll through the list and make sure the box for "あ Kotoeri" is checked. Also, at the bottom, there is an optional box "Show input menu in menu bar" that you can check to see the currently running input method next to your clock.

This only applies to OS X. For the steps on OS 9, please refer to [http://www.nihongoweb.com/Computing/JLK.html Nihongoweb's Instructions].

=== Windows Instructions ===

[http://www.declan-software.com/japanese_ime Installing the Japanese IME] is the best place to look for good instructions. [http://greggman.com/japan/xp-ime/xp-ime.htm GMAN: Windows XP Japanese Input] is also very thorough.

A detailed tutorial with screenshots for Windows XP can be found [http://fredart.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4149 here]. A follow up tutorial on using the Windows [[IME]] can be found [http://fredart.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4732 here]. Or go straight to [http://support.microsoft.com/kb/177561/ Microsoft].

=== Setting up Windows XP for Japanese ===

Navigate to Start -> Control Panel -> Date, Time, Language, and Regional Options -> Regional and Language Options -> Languages Tab

Check "Install files for East Asian languages" -> Details -> Add

Select "Japanese" from the drop down list and press OK

Click Language bar. Check "Show language bar on desktop". Click [EN] (English) and change it to [JP] (Japanese). Click "Input Mode" and change it from '''A''' (Direct Input) to あ (Hiragana) or ア (Katakana).

A good guide about setting up language and using the language bar is here http://greggman.com/japan/xp-ime/xp-ime.htm

=== Using a Japanese Keyboard ===

==== Windows ====
Some instructions for Windows users: http://www.kurnspatrick.com/Support/keyboardmapping.htm

==== Macintosh ====
Mac supports Japanese keyboards out of the box with very little/no configuration.

==== Linux / XWindows / X.org ====
Linux also supports Japanese keyboards out of the box, but if your mapping is incorrect, it's a simple fix.

If your keyboard mapping is wrong in Linux, edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf as root with the following command.
<pre>sudo nano /etc/X11/xorg.conf</pre>
Look for the InputDevice for "Generic Keyboard". It should look like similar to the following:
<pre>Section "InputDevice"
Identifier "Generic Keyboard"
Driver "kbd"
Option "CoreKeyboard"
Option "XkbRules" "xorg"
Option "XkbModel" "pc105"
Option "XkbLayout" "us"
Option "XkbOptions" "lv3:ralt_switch"
EndSection</pre>

Change the "XkbModel" and "XkbLayout" options to Japanese layout like so:
<pre> Option "XkbModel" "jp106"
Option "XkbLayout" "jp"
</pre>
Save the file, and restart the X server by rebooting or hitting <ctrl>+<alt>+<Back Space>

=== Windows Mobile 5 ===
For this system, you will need Bagoj's Japanese language pack, and if your PDA's display is QVGA, also the QVGA files.

Except for needing to decompress the QVGA files on a PC, all the following work is done on the PDA itself.

1. Download and install the cab. If you have a VGA device, skip to step 4.

(QVGA ONLY DEVICES, Contine...)

2. Download and decompress the QVGA files.

3. Place these files in the Windows directory, overwriting the files with the same names from the main cab. I did this by simply decompressing these files to a folder on a memory card my PDA can accept, and copying them with the file manager on the device.

(ALL DEVICES Continue)

4. Reset your device.

You will now have a window that can be moved almost anywhere on the screen. the first button turns the IME on and off, the second selects the type of character to input when in keyboard or character recognition modes.

Multibox will allow you to directly input your character by drawing them in the boxes. Stroke order seems to be important.

Radical List allows you to select Kanji by radical.

Stroke list allows you to select Kanji by number of strokes.

Character Autocomplete allows you to draw a partial Kanji, and select the appropriate one from a list. Stroke order seems important.

Some of these may display a security warning initially, saying that it requires running a program from an untrusted publisher. Simply tap yes to get that specific editor. Normally, this only will happen the first time an editor is run, also, this will normally only affect the QVGA devices.

Download the [http://www.asukal.jp/WM5/BagojsINPUT.zip main cab here].

Download the [http://bagoj.info2k1.hu/downloads/ppc/japanese/qvgasips.zip QVGA files here].

=== How do you type ゐゑヰヱ? ===

It depends on your [[IME]].

{| class="wikitable"
! IME !! Type This !! Get This
|+
! Anthy
| xwi || ゐ
|+
! Anthy
| xwe || ゑ
|+
| || colspan='2' | use F7 to get katakana versions
|+
! MS IME*
| wi || ゐ
|+
! MS IME
| we || ゑ
|+
|}

* Note that with MS IME you must henkan (type space) after entering we / wi to get desired character.
[http://www.sljfaq.org/w/MS_IME MS IME romaji table]

===ARRGH! I just can't enter Japanese.===

If, for whatever reason, you can't install an IME then there is ...
* [http://ajaxime.chasen.org/ Online IME. This is great!]
* [http://www.mauvecloud.net/charsets/asian/fastromaji.html romaji conversion]
* [http://www.physics.ucla.edu/~grosenth/jwpce.html JWPce a free downloadable Japanese text wordprocessor]
* [http://wakan.manga.cz/ Wakan: another free downloadable Japanese text wordprocessor with a nice example sentences package]
* [http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/jviewer.html Japanese WWW Page viewer - Displays Japanese web pages with images of the kanji/kana]

== "How do I say or write '....' in Japanese?" questions ==
You can try the wiki page [[How do I say "...." in Japanese?]].

You can also try a [[Dictionaries|dictionary]].

Alternatively, you can search the [http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/tanakacorpus.html Tanaka Corpus] through [http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?10 WWWJDIC].

These kinds of questions are very common. If you can't find an answer on the linked pages, do a forum search and you might well find the answer.

== Questions about learning Japanese ==
=== Where can I learn Japanese?===

Here. That is from this WagaWiki (look at the [[Main Page]] and the categories Practice and Grammar). Also [http://www.thejapanesepage.com TheJapanesePage.Com] (look at forum posts, articles, lesson links from the navigation bar etc).

===Can somebody teach me Japanese?===

Nobody is going to do '''everything''' for you for free. Post sensible specific questions in the forums and people will probably answer them. Practice writing Japanese in the forums and people will probably correct it. Don't forget the option of textbooks (see [[Selecting a Japanese Textbook]]) and taking classes.

===What should I study first?===

Hiragana first. It is the absolute basic thing to learn. It's easy enough to understand and utilise within a week or so and it goes very far to help you understand Japanese. Katakana is usually the next step. Katakana phonetically spell out foreign words in Japanese. Both syllabaries have the same sounds, but different characters. After that, learning is much easier.

===Do I really have to learn Kanji?===
If you want to be able to read and write passably in Japanese, yes. Kanji aren't difficult, but learning them is time consuming. They also help to make the spoken language easier to understand because it clarifies how words share the same roots in the Japanese mind.

Learn to love them early on and it will make your learning swifter and far more pleasant.

===What about Manga and Anime?===
see: [[Learning Japanese from media]]

===Where can I find some audio files of Japanese?===

*[http://www.japanesepod101.com Japanese Pod 101] has daily podcasts with Japanese lessons.
*[http://www.japancast.net Japancast] has weekly lesson podcasts, and links to humorous video clips.
*[http://www.nhk.or.jp/lesson/ NHK] has weekly lesson broadcasts in a number of languages, which are archived on their website.

===Why are some words written in a combination of kanji and hiragana? Why not in all kanji or all hiragana?===

Originally, Japanese was written in all kanji, but Japanese, unlike Chinese, is a highly inflected language, and inevitably certain kanji started to be used purely for phonetic value to represent the verb and adjective inflections and the particles. Eventually, these became simplified in a couple of different ways, resulting in the katakana and hiragana syllabaries.

In childrens' books, Japanese is written in all hiragana, but the use of kanji makes words easier to distinguish, especially for foreign language learners with small vocabularies.

How to know when to use kanji and when to use hiragana? A mixture of experience and esthetics. Many words that can be written in kanji are usually written in kana in modern Japanese. Also, Japanese try to maintain a balance between kanji and kana for esthetic reasons.

===What's the difference between on and kun readings, and how do I know when to use them?===

On readings are the way the Japanese heard the kanji pronounced when they borrowed them from Chinese. They are usually used in compounds and suru verbs.

Kun readings are native Japanese words to which the kanji have been applied according to the meaning of the kanji. The are usually used in stand-alone kanji or in conjugated words (-i adjectives and verbs.)

Since there are often two or three on and kun readings, and sometimes up to a dozen kun readings for a kanji, the only way to be sure how to read a word containing a kanji is to learn the word and the reading it uses.

== Questions about TheJapanesePage members ==

===Is anyone here Japanese?===

The short answer is yes. The more complex answer depends on the reason for asking this question. In general, unless studying very advanced Japanese, there are plenty of non-Japanese members that can answer any question accurately. The native Japanese usually only step in to answer if one of the other members answers incorrectly. Just remember that asking specifically for a Japanese person to answer a queston is usually considered rude and can alienate other members.

If a Japanese person is needed to fill out some kind of survey, then these requests are more tolerated. Follow standard survey practices, otherwise some who might be willing to take the survey may lose interest.

===Finding Penpals===

If on the other hand you are looking for a penpal it is better to use one of the standard pen pal connection venues. These are some links to sites some members have used.
*[http://www.japan-guide.com/ Japan Guide]
*[http://www.tpn.info The Penpals Network]
*[http://www.nk.rim.or.jp/~hirokun/index2.html Penpal Net]
*[http://www.mylanguageexchange.com/ My Language Exchange]
*[http://www.polyglot-learn-language.com/ Polyglot Learn Language]
*[http://www.worldfriend.net/ World Friend]

A few notes about penpals:
*Don't trick a penpal into thinking you have a higher level of Japanese ability than you do. In other words, don't post to the forum asking for entire e-mails to be translated (either way). Stay within your level of Japanese -- if your Japanese is almost nonexistent, then get a penpal who knows English.
*Don't post the penpal's private e-mails to you onto TJP unless you have gotten your penpal's permission to do so.

===What are these people talking about?===

Over the years, a few threads and posters have become legendary and the subject of various in-jokes that act as [[TJP Shibboleths | shibboleths]]. Unlike normal shibboleths they are not meant to exclude, but they do confuse people from time-to-time.

==Questions about Japanese culture==

===Tattoos and Japan===

*[[Why we don't do Japanese tattoos]]
*[[Tattoos in Japan]]

== Recommended reading material ==

Some of your questions have already been discussed on the forums. Please check these threads.

* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4258 外人 vs 外国人 (gaijin vs gaikokujin)]
* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3208 外人? (gaijin?)]
* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3724 How not to be a Gaijin?!?]
* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3016 the right kind of gaijin?]
* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2843 Does Japan hate me?]
* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6972 Girls and Gaijins]
[[Category:TheJapanesePage.Com]]

User talk:Gundaetiapo

Coco — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 12:02:57 GMT

Coco:

Gundaetiapo-san
Thank you for your corrections and teaching. Those are great helps, I really appreciate it.

Regarding "となる vs になる". This is the usage of となる( instead of になる。) from a proverb.＾＾
--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 17:53, 30 June 2007 (EDT) 
ちり(塵)も積も'''れば'''山''となる''。= Penny and penny laid up will be many. /Many small make a great.
:ココさん、ありがとうございます。

わかりました。「；」はイヤリングか涙か肌の皺かわかりませんでした。
このページにはどうぞ何でも<del>を</del>書いて下さい。very polite expression! perfect.

I haven't finished the conditional talk page yet, I need to explain と as " discovery", another usage as a conjunction と( like 外に出る '''と''' 、急に雨が降り出しました。) I 'll try to add it later.

But could you do me a favor?
I'd like you to expand the [[Conditionals]] page.
You have the Nakama2(or other text books), and I assume you could understand what I tried to say in the conditional talk page. Most of them were not described correctly because of my English.

So I believe you can re-write it more smart way.

We don't need to be hurry. If you do that when you have time, it would be a great help.--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 21:33, 2 July 2007 (EDT)

R/L 聞き分け　100％ 
B/V 聞き分け 91% 
S/Th 聞き分け 87% 
母音聞き分け 72% 
母音聞き分け was tricky because it doesn't use real words. I didn't answer "cute/tube" on any of the questions so I might not have done the test right. Gundaetiapo 13:05, 25 August 2007 (EDT)

::試してくださってありがとう。
::S/Th の方がR/Vより難しいみたいですね。
:::I went through them pretty fast. I don't think getting 100% is important since there are other cues to use to figure out a word. Timing, pitch, grammatical function, context.
::My note page is getting heavier( over32kb), and easy to get an error message, so I write this here.Hope you don't mind.--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 20:54, 25 August 2007 (EDT)
:::I don't mind, please feel free to write here as you please. I created an article that you can put your old or new notes in.
:: 新しいページをどうもありがとうございます。＾＾--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 10:59, 26 August 2007 (EDT)

--

Gundaetiapo-san, could you please look at [http://s152453462.onlinehome.us/w/index.php?title=Learning_Japanese_from_media&diff=5856&oldid=5841 this page? ] Do you think those editings are reasonable? --[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 08:02, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

User:Gundaetiapo

Coco — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 11:55:40 GMT

Coco: /* Things to remember */ Links

==Things to remember==
* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9120 Mike Cash's post] regarding ように見える.
* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?forum_id=7&t=9299 Yudan's post] regarding い type adjectives with き ending.
* Do (verb1)　 instead of 　(verb 2) ing 　　(V2)　もせずに　(V1)　している。
* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9305 が in negative sentences].
* 「… ということです(よ)ね。」 (… ってことです(よ)ね) is useful phrase. When you think you understand what the speaker said but still need to confirm his/her intention, ですよね/ですね is used. If you are still not sure what the speaker meant, ということですか? is suitable.
* Basically か is pretty rough when used in plain sentences. だい and かい are a bit less harsh. Note that かい is for yes/no questions while だい is for what/who/which type 'wh' questions.
* Oyaji's post about しらない with "don't come crying to me" translation.
* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9962 jt's explanation] of も and でも here is interesting.
* richv says: The time when you have to use て form to chain adjectives is when they are the predicate. When they are modifying a following noun, all the adjectives (save the final one, immediately preceding the noun) can be in either い/な or くて/で form.
:○あのウサギは怖くて悪い 
:×あのウサギは怖い悪い 
:○あの怖くて悪いウサギ 
:○あの怖い悪いウサギ 
* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10528&sid=0ab43835ee58e067ea5162af91e0b4bc Useful thread] on それにしても, それにしたは.

==Media of interest==
Some media that I want to check out at some point in the future.

===Anime===
* Mushishi
* Daa daa daa, with Japanese subtitles, might make good listening comprehension because of it's young target audience.
* あらしのよるに

===Manga===
* Ranma 1/2, currently reading.

===Live action===
Some of these films might be too difficult for me, so I'm not sure whether to go for English or Japanese subtitles yet.
* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=26&thread_id=9798 Always]
* Samurai trilogy

===Video games===
* Chrono Trigger, my favorite video game, might make a good choice as first Japanese video game to play.
* Star Ocean, played the first portion from an unofficial English version and it was really fun. Playing the game all the way through in the Japanese version is a possible goal.

Talk:Conditionals

Coco — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 03:58:57 GMT

Coco: /* Example 3 */

:Do you want to merge the main article to here, coco?
::Yes, I'd like to merge this article to the main page article, if it's possible. 
:: もし可能なら、この記事をメインページに移動させたいと思います。--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 11:04, 16 July 2007 (EDT)
::: So, a merge from article to discussion, and then a copy and paste from discussion to article. Does that make sense?
:: I copied some part of article about と( gray colored sentences). Did it a way you suggested? :) --[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 03:06, 18 July 2007 (EDT)
:::Yeah, thanks coco. Do you want the conjugation charts in the article?
:I guess making と conditional is very easy because words never conjugate. But it might be kind to put the charts for the beginner. Do you think the conjugation charts is needed?--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 10:36, 22 July 2007 (EDT)　
:::You going any place interesting? [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 19:48, 20 July 2007 (EDT)

=と=
「～と」is used when sentence1 and sentence2 have a constant, repetitive, or continuous relationship. The conditional と expresses a phenomenon that constantly occurs with the condition described in sentence 1. 
と is a subordinate conjunction which makes S1 a condition, and S2 a result. The nuance that is implied by usage of と is this: if the condition of S1 is satisfied, then the result of S2 follows naturally (and will always be true provided S1 holds true).

==Conjugation==
{| class="wikitable"
|
|'''Dictionary form'''
|'''と conjugation'''
|'''Reading'''
|-
|'''Nouns'''
|休日 小学校
|休日だと 小学校だと
|きゅうじつだと しょうがっこうだと
|-
|'''な adjectives'''
|立派な きれいな
|立派だと きれいだと
|りっぱだと きれいだと
|-
|'''い adjectives'''
|いい 大きい
|いいと 大きいと
|いいと おおきいと
|-
|'''Verbs'''
|来る 飲む
|来ると 飲むと
|くると のむと
|}

==Repetitive phenomenon==
===Example 1===
sentence 1: 春になる。 (spring comes) 
sentence 2: 花が咲き始める。 (flowers start to bloom) 
To express the relationship between the two:
:○[春になる]'''と'''[花が咲き始める]。 
:When spring comes, flowers start to bloom. 

You can replace と and たら 
:○春にな<del>る</del><ins>ったら、</ins>花が咲き始める。 

===Example 2===
sentence 1: コインを自動販売機に入れる。 (insert coins in a vending machine) 
sentence 2: ジュースが出てくる。 (juice comes out) 
To express the relationship between the two:
:○[コインを自販機に入れる]'''と'''[ジュースが出てくる]。 
:When you insert your coins in a vending machine, drinks come out. 
Note that 自販機 is an abbreviation of 自動販売機. 

You can put たら instead of と 
:○コインを自販機に入れ<del>る</del><ins>たら、</ins>ジュースが出てくる。 

===Example 3===
sentence 1: 掃除機をかける。 (use a vacuum cleaner) 
sentence 2: ネコが[騒ぐ/怒り出す]。 (cat makes a noise) 
To express the relationship between the two:
:○[掃除機をかける]'''と'''[ネコが騒ぐ/怒り出す]。 
:When you use a vacuum cleaner, the cat makes a noise. 

You can put たら instead of と 
:○掃除機をかけ<del>る</del><ins>たら、</ins>猫が騒ぐ。 

See more usages of [http://thejapanesepage.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Particles conjunction と].

==Personal expressions==
You can ask with ～と for someone's physical condition as a repetitive behavior. 

===Example 1===
sentence 1: リンゴをかじる。 
sentence 2: 歯茎から血がでませんか? 
To express the relationship between the two:
:○リンゴをかじる'''と'''歯茎から血がでませんか? (An advertising slogan from a tooth paste brand.) 
:Don't you get (repeated) bleeding from the gums when you bite an apple? 
Also you can express your physical condition or repetitive behavior under the condition expressed in the sentence 1.

===Example 2===
sentence 1: 春になる。 
sentence 2: クシャミがでる。 
To express the relationship between the two:
:○春になる'''と'''、クシャミがでます。私、花粉症なんです。 
:I sneeze a lot in spring season. I have an allergy to pollen. 

===Example 3===
sentence 1: 寒くなる。 
sentence 2: ミスタードーナツで勉強した。 
To express the relationship between the two:
:○寒くなるとよく[http://www.misterdonut.jp/index.html ミスタードーナツ]で勉強した。(repetitive behavior) 
:When it got cold, I often studied at Mr. Donuts. (From [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=62 this thread].) 
In this case, we rather add [[もの]]だった/[[もの]]でした on the end of sentence to express a speaker's reminiscence. 
:○寒くなると、よくミスタードーナツで勉強したものだった。 
:○寒くなると、よくミスタードーナツで勉強したものでした。 

==Wrong usages of Conditional とsentences ==

You can find a interrelationship easily between sentence1 and sentence2 which are connected with と. 
You can not put following types of sentences after the conditional と. 
ⅰ) speaker's will, wish/hope/desire 
ⅱ) imperative sentence 
ⅲ) request 
Since と represents a natural consequence, it cannot be used when the result S2 is dependent on volitional action of someone. For example, S2 cannot be something like a command, invitation, or suggestion. Here is an example of incorrect usage of と:

===Example 1===
sentence 1: 春になる。 
sentence 2: 花見に行きませんか。(asking invitation) 
:× 春になる'''と'''、花見に行きませんか 
:○ 春になっ'''たら'''、花見に行きませんか。 
:Shall we go to the sakura-watching-party when spring comes? 

sentence 2: 花見に行く予定だ。(telling plan/will) 
:×春になる'''と'''、花見く予定だ。 
:○春になっ'''たら'''、花見に行く予定だ。
:I'm planning to go watch sakura flowers when spring comes.

===Example 2===
sentence 1: コインを入れる。 
sentence 2: ボタンを押してください。(request) 
:× コインを入れる'''と''' 、ボタンを押してください。 
:○ コインを入れ'''たら'''、ボタンを押してください。
:Please push a button when/after you insert your coins.

===Example 3===
sentence 1: 掃除機をかける 
sentence 2: 窓を開けた方がいい (suggestion/advice) 
:×掃除機をかける'''と''' 、窓を開けた方がいい。 
:○掃除機をかける'''なら'''、窓を開けた方がいい。
:It would be better to open windows if you use a vacuum cleaner. 
The speaker would say this if it seems you're about to use a vacuum cleaner．If you'd like to say this as a　general consideration,
:○掃除機をかける'''とき(時)は'''、窓を開けた方がいい。 
:It would be better to open windows when you use a vacuum cleaner. 

===Usuful expressions===
そうしない'''と''' = otherwise 
さもない'''と''' (conj,exp) otherwise; else; if not so; KD ( from WWWJDIC)

寒け'''れば'''コートを着なさい。[そうしない'''と'''/さもない'''と''']風邪をひきますよ。(mother's speech)= If you feel cold, put on your overcoat. Otherwise you will catch a cold. 

急いでください。[そうしない'''と'''/さもない'''と''']、会議に間に合いません。=Please hurry or else you/we will be late for the meeting. 

シートペルトをしてください。[そうしない'''と'''/さもない'''と''' ]警察に違反キップを切られますよ。 
Fasten the seatbelt. Otherwise the police will give you a ticket. 

You can make these forms more casual with V+negative+ と. 
(in-group conversation) 
コートを'''着ないと'''風邪ひくよ。 
'''急がないと'''会議に間に合わないよ。 
シートベルトを'''しないと'''おまわりさんに違反キップを切られるよ。 

=なら=
「～なら」is used when a speaker expresses his/her own opinion, judgment, or command which can not be expressed in the 「～と」conditional sentence. 
One of the features of this usage would be the reply to the person's (whom you are talking) topic. When using なら form, you can say your opinions or suggestions about specific suppositions which the person had just mentioned. 

==Conjugation==
{| class="wikitable"
|
|'''Dictionary form'''
|'''なら conjugation'''
|'''Reading'''
|-
|'''Nouns'''
|休日 小学校
|休日なら 小学校なら
|きゅうじつなら しょうがっこうなら
|-
|'''な adjectives'''
|立派な きれいな
|立派なら きれいなら
|りっぱなら きれいなら
|-
|'''い adjectives'''
|いい 大きい
|いい（の/ん）なら 大きい（の/ん）なら
|いい（の/ん）なら おおきい（の/ん）なら
|-
|'''Verbs'''
|来る 飲む
|来る（の/ん）なら 飲む（の/ん）なら
|くる（の/ん）なら のむ（の/ん）なら
|}

===Usages as topic taking ===
e.g. (in-group conversation.)
田中: ''夏休みには''、海外旅行にいきたいな。
Tanaka: I'd like to go abroad during summer vacation.
山田: ''夏休みに行く'''''なら'''、早く予約しない '''と''' 飛行機のチケットがとれなくなるよ。
Yamada : If you go abroad during summer vacation, you'd better hurry to book,
otherwise, you'll miss an airline ticket.

It might have a sound like " I suggest '''as to''' your supposition (in this case the trip during summer vacation)".

「Verb＋なら」 is often interchangeable with 　verb＋の(ん)だったら/verb+ならば.
::'''ん'''だったら is from '''の'''だったら. The particle の(''no'') is often changed into ん(''nn'') in colloquial speech.

e.g
山田:''夏休みに行く''ん'''だったら'''、早く予約しないと飛行機のチケットがとれなくなるよ。(frank)
山田:''夏休みに行く'''''ならば'''、早く予約しないと飛行機のチケットがとれなくなりますよ。( bit solid)

e.g.
高橋: 天気予報によると、週末に ''台風が来る'' らしいですよ。
Takahashi: According to a weather forecast, the typhoon is coming this weekend.
佐藤: そうですか。''台風が来る'''''なら'''、週末は外出しない方がいいかもしれませんね。
Satou : Oh, really? We might not want to go out this weekend if the typhoon will come.

Mr./Ms. Satou might say
佐藤 : そうですか。''台風が来る''ん'''だったら'''、週末は外出しない方がいいかもしれませんね。
佐藤 : そうですか。''台風が来る'''''ならば'''、週末は外出しない方がいいかもしれませんね。

===Usages as topic making===
Also you can provide a topic using the なら form, which is not a response speech.

e.g. (in-group) 
もし僕がマイケル・ジャクソン'''なら'''、チンパンジーじゃなくて、イルカを飼うな。 
もし僕がマイケル・ジャクソン'''だったら'''、チンパンジーじゃなくてイルカを飼うな。 
If I were Michael Jackson, I would keep a dolphin rather than a chimpanzee as a pet.

===Usages as limited condition ===
e.g. 
山本さんは豚肉'''なら'''食べられますが、牛肉は食べられません。 
山本さんは豚肉'''でしたら'''召し上がりますが、牛肉は召し上がりません。more polite expression 
Ms./Mr. Yamamoto can eat it if it is pork, but can't eat beef. 
The meaning is almost the same as 山本さんは豚肉'''は'''食べられますが、牛肉は食べられません。( Ms./Mr.Yamanoto can eat pork, but cannot eat beef.) However you can emphasis what food Yamamoto-san can eat or not by using なら. 
e.g. 
今日は会えませんが、明日の午後'''なら'''会えます。 
Although I'm not available today, I will be able to meet you/someone if it is tomorrow afternoon. 
This is almost the same as 今日は会えませんが、明日の午後'''は'''会えます。Using なら has the nuance of limited condition, like saying "tomorrow afternoon only". 

=ば(eba)=
==Conjugation==
{| class="wikitable"
|
|'''Dictionary form'''
|'''ば conjugation'''
|'''Reading'''
|-
|'''Nouns'''
|休日 小学校
|休日なら（ば） 小学校なら（ば）
|きゅうじつなら（ば） しょうがっこうなら（ば）
|-
|'''な adjectives'''
|立派な きれいな
|立派なら（ば） きれいなら（ば）
|りっぱなら（ば） きれいなら（ば）
|-
|'''い adjectives'''
|いい 大きい
|よければ 大きければ
|よければ おおきければ
|-
|'''Irregular verbs'''
|来る 勉強する
|来れば 勉強すれば
|くれば べんきょうすれば
|-
|'''Ichidan verbs'''
|あげる 食べる
|あげれば 食べれば
|あげれば たべれば
|-
|'''Godan verbs'''
|もらう 言う
|もらえば 言えば
|もらえば いえば
|}

==Examples==
A requirement/conditions to make a status of sentence 2 is placed in sentence 1.
:What's the Japanese for this sentence? [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 20:46, 18 August 2007 (EDT)
:: I couldn't understand what I wanted to say ＾＾　 probably
:::「文2の状態を構成する要件/条件が、文1に置かれます。」--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 08:19, 21 August 2007 (EDT)
:::: May I suggest: "A precondition of sentence 2 is placed in sentence 1."

::It sounds great. Thanks.
::Now I notice my explanation is not a feature of ば. It would apply to all conditionals. I mean my explanation was bad. 
::: Your explanations are very helpful and appreciated.
:::: As another question, is ば conditional [http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%90%8C%E5%80%A4 "if and only if"] or just "if"? [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 14:24, 21 August 2007 (EDT)
::I think ならば could have a nuance of " only if". I suppose it might be ～の場合に限って. What do you think about ～さえ + ば～ form. (これはJLPT 2級文法です。) 
::For example; 
::田中さん'''さえ'''飛行機に乗り遅れなけ'''れば'''、今ごろはみんなハワイに着いているのになぁ。 
::: If only Tanaka had made it, we'd be in Hawaii right about now. (?)
::水'''さえ'''飲んでい'''れば'''、人間は30日も生きられるらしい。 
::: If you just drink water, you can live 30 days. (?)
:: Do you think さえ+ ば would be " (if and)only if " ?

::On the other hand, 塵も積もれば山となる, 降れば土砂降り、犬もあるけば棒にあたる don't have its meaning. Also ば in " 3時になれば、(先生がいらっしゃいます。)" would not be " if and only if ".
::So, " if and only if" might not be an explanation of ば. 
::Would these be a sort of answer? Or am I misreading your question? --[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 09:38, 22 August 2007 (EDT)
:::わかりました。「ばconditional」、「iff」のような表現じゃなさそうですね。ご説明ありがとうございます。
:::
::: Intended: I see, So it sounds like the ば conditional isn't iff. Thanks for your explanation. [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 20:29, 22 August 2007 (EDT)

1) 
sentence 1 (postulation)= 天気がいい sentence 2 = 東京からも富士山が見える。 
天気がよけれ'''ば''' 、東京からも富士山が見えます。 
You can see Mt.Fuji from even Tokyo if the weather is clear. 
(You might not be able to see Mt.Fuji from Tokyo if the weather isn't clear.) 
:Both of these sentences sound good. [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 20:46, 18 August 2007 (EDT)
:: ありがとうございます。--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 08:19, 21 August 2007 (EDT)
This is very similar to ～と usage because the presupposition expressed in the sentence 1 forms the status expressed in sentence 2, has a repetitive interrelationship. 
So you can say

天気がいい'''と''' 、東京からも富士山が見えます。 
晴れてい'''れば'''、東京からも富士山が見えます。 
晴れている'''と''' 、東京からも富士山が見えます。 

2) 
sentence 1 = 3時になる sentence 2 = 岡田先生が来る (いらっしゃる is the 尊敬語 of 来る.) 

3時にな'''れば'''、岡田先生がいらっしゃいます。 
Professor Okada will come here when it is 3 o'clock. 
You　can say also 
3時になる'''と'''、岡田先生がいらっしゃいます。 
When it is 3 o'clock, professor Okada comes here． 

「3時になる'''と''' 、岡田先生がいらっしゃいます。」implies that the professor repetitively comes up there at 3:00 every day. Meanwhile, 「3時にな'''れば'''、岡田先生がいらっしゃいます」means the speaker knows the professor's schedule on that day, does't mention the other days.

3) 
sentence 1( postulation)= 雨が降る。 sentence 2 = 花火大会は中止。 
雨が降'''れば'''、花火大会は中止です。 
The fireworks exhibition won't be held if it rains. 
:Good. [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 20:50, 18 August 2007 (EDT)
:: ありがとう。--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 08:19, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

「雨が降る'''と'''、花火大会は中止されます」rather has a tone of something like an empirical rule.( e.g.: Generally, fireworks exhibitions are canceled when it rains.) But 「雨が降'''れば'''、花火大会は中止です」 mentions about "The fireworks exhibition" which you are anxious about.

4) 
You can express a contrary-to-fact condition by using conditional ば. In this case sentence 2 is always the past tense.
:Pick either:
::express a contrary-to-fact condition
::express contrary-to-fact conditions
:[[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 21:00, 18 August 2007 (EDT)
::: 修正しました。ありがとう。--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 08:19, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

30分早く起き'''れば'''、飛行機の出発時間に間に合'''った'''。 
If I got up 30 minutes earlier, I would have been in time for the departure of the airplane. ( But I failed to catch the flight). 
:If I got up 30 minutes earlier, I would have been in time for the departure of the airplane.
:
:Also,
::"catch up with the flight" sounds a little better. "catch the flight" is good too. [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 21:08, 18 August 2007 (EDT)
::: ありがとうございます。--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 08:19, 21 August 2007 (EDT)
In this case, adding のに on the end of the sentence can express your feelings stronger. 
30分早く起き'''れば'''、飛行機の出発時間に間に合'''った'''のに。

雨が降っていなけ'''れば'''、花火がみられ'''た'''のに。
If it didn't rain, I would have been able to see the fireworks.( But I failed to see the fireworks.)
:I'll let you correct this sentence using the word "would". :) [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 21:08, 18 August 2007 (EDT)
:: "If it didn't rain, I would have been able to see the fireworks." (?)
:: I hope the day of the fireworks won't rain so that I wouldn't have to use this usage. :) --[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 08:19, 21 August 2007 (EDT)
::: Hehe, well done though. [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 14:30, 21 August 2007 (EDT)
::ありがとう。＾＾修正しました。--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 09:38, 22 August 2007 (EDT)

=== wrong usages of ～ば form===

You can not use ～ば(eba) form in that kind of situations: 

1) the accidental events 
×商店街を歩いていれば、雨に降られた。 
○商店街を歩いていたら、雨に降られた。 
When I was walking through the shopping mall, rain fell over me. (?) 

×新聞を読んでいれば、おもしろい記事をみつけた。 
○新聞を読んでいたら、おもしろい記事をみつけた。 
I found an interesting article when/while I was reading a news paper.(?) 

2) directions (after someone satisfied the conditions.) 
×この伝言を聞'''けば'''、電話をください。 
○この伝言を聞い'''たら'''、電話をください。 
Please call me back after you checked this message. <be>

×報告書が完成す'''れば'''、すぐに提出してください。 
○報告書が完成し'''たら'''、すぐに提出してください。 
Please submit your report as soon as you made up it.(?)/ Please submit your report immediately when you finished it.(?)

*「～ば」 forms in the proverbs.
降'''れば'''土砂降(どしゃぶ)り。= It doesn't rain but it pours. 
ちり(塵)も積も'''れば'''山となる。= Penny and penny laid up will be many. /Many small make a great. 
犬も歩'''けば'''棒にあたる。= The beast that goes always never wants blows./The dog that trots about finds a bone./A flying crow always catches something.

* Useful expressions (probably) 
You can ask " how can I do/how shold I do" with どうす'''れば'''. 
どうすれば、[きっぷ/チケット]を安く買えますか? = How can I buy the ticket cheaper? (?)(*Generally チケットis used for flight tickets, きっぷ is used for train tickets.) 
どうすれば、そこに泊まれますか? = How can I stay over nights there? (?) 
どうすれば、そこに行けるのかわかりません。= I don't know how I can get there.(?) 
どうすれば、パンディオンをインストールできるのかわかりません。= I don't know what to do to install the Pandion. (?) 
どうすればいいか、教えてください。= Please tell me how shold I do.(?) 

=たら=
「～たら」 is widely used as a conditional form.

e.g. 
15歳の頃の自分と対面できるとし'''たら'''、言っておきたいことは? 
If you were able to meet with yourself aged around 15 years old, what would you like to say to her/him? (?)

In this case
○15歳の頃の自分と対面できる'''なら''' 
○15歳の頃の自分と対面できるとす'''れば''' 
×15歳の頃の自分と対面できる'''と''' 

1日がもし25時間だっ'''たら'''、その1時間で何をしますか? 
If one day had 25hours, what will you do during the extra hour? (?) 
In this case 
○1日がもし25時間'''なら'''/'''ならば''' (→ See なら uesge above) 
○1日がもし25時間だとす'''れば''' 
×1日がもし25時間だと 

===Difference between なら and たら (tense)===

Please care the tense, otherwise the turn goes upside down.

大学に<ins>入る</ins>'''なら'''、本をたくさん読みなさい。(more about [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=7&thread_id=4447 なさい])
大学に<ins>入る</ins>ん'''だったら'''、本をたくさん読みなさい。
大学に<ins>入る</ins>のであ'''れば'''、本をたくさん読みなさい。
Read tons of books if you are going to a university/college.(?)
All of these are saying same things. This is an advice/suggestion to read books for the preparation of an enrollment.　

大学に<ins>入った</ins>'''ら'''、本をたくさん読みなさい。
Read tons of books when you go to a university/college.(?)
Read tons of books when you become a university/college student.(?)

This is an advice/suggestion to undergraduate students/college student. A speaker don't mention about the preparation for an enrollment. Just advises your attitude for learning as a college/university student. 

The following slogan, which is used as an prohibition campaign of drinkers' driving, would be good to learn the difference between なら and たら/だら.

「飲ん'''だら'''乗るな、乗る'''なら'''飲むな!」
Do not drive a car when you've been drinking,
and do not drink (any alcohol) if you are going to drive a car.

飲ん'''だら''' is the conditional of posteriority. This command mentions "after your action(= drank some alcohol)". 
乗る'''なら''' is the conditional of " your intention". This sentence directs something before you act(= drive a car) 

* Useful expression ( probably) 
'''～したらどうですか'''＝　How about if ～/why don't you ～ 
もう少し早い電車で行っ'''たら'''、どうですか? 
How about if we/I/you take( took?) the earier train to get there? (?) 
そのホテルで２泊し'''たら'''、どうですか? 
How about if I/we/you stay( stayed?) two nights at that hotel? (?) 
帰りを飛行機ではなく、夜行バスに'''したら'''どうですか？ 
How about if I/we/you take ( took?) the midnight bus instead of the flight as a return trip? (?)
::[http://thejapanesepage.com/w/index.php?title=Grammar_page_5#How..._.E3.81.A9.E3.81.86 See also どう]
::[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?rowstart=20&forum_id=7&thread_id=8201#95992 Shin1ro-san's] post.

JLPT3 Chat Resources Summary

Coco — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 03:54:38 GMT

Coco: Links

There are many resources to help who wants to join the JLPT3 2007 Chat Study Group.

*There is the main thread ([http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7463])
* There is the thread used to talk about learning materials and study topics ([http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7580&rowstart=80])
* There is the list of active members ([http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=8560])
There are also, available in the [[Chatroom_Schedule|Chatroom Schedule]], the logs of the chat meetings.

To know more about JLPT please check [[JLPT|this]].

==some comments on JLPT3Q Chat Study group==

The JLPT3 2007 Chat study started the session on June, and had 15 sessions for 5 months. Our core members were almost same as the core members of [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5331 The JLPT4 2006 Chat study group].The biggest problem was the time setting. During the sessions, some members had to get up early every Sunday morning. However we managed to set the session in which the members, whose time zone are various, could attend.

After August, we needed to prepare for the listening section, so we used a short funny video as a learning material.

The first half of the sessions, the session topic was decided by members' opinions posted on the thread. Before starting each session, we prepared some quiz relevant to each topic to make the session more effective.

Basically, the session was 120 minutes, sometimes it became 150 minutes. Therefore our members could share more than 30 hours. We could have learned a lot of things (not only language study) from that precious time. We really have spent good time.

[[Category:Chat]]

Talk:不要スレッド

Coco — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 03:49:14 GMT

Coco:

Talk:Zengargoyles ToDo List

Coco — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 03:29:55 GMT

Coco:

Zen-san, Thank you for your great efforts and time to manage Wagawiki/chat rooms. 

Zen-san, I am wondering this page is on "s152453462.onlinehome.us/w". I thought it is a back-up-site of the old site, and I understand it would be remove when the moving is settled.
The link to Wagawiki from Drupal main page introduces this s1524 site. The previous URL to Wagawiki( http://www.thejapanesepage.com/w/index.php?title=Main_Page) looks broken.
Thus an internal site link using URL(e.g. link to a talk page) is also broken. Is there any solutions? --[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 22:23, 8 March 2008 (EST)

Talk:Zengargoyles ToDo List

Coco — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 03:26:19 GMT

Coco:

Zen-san, Thank you for your great efforts and time to manage Wagawiki/chat rooms. 

Zen-san, I am wondering this page is on "s152453462.onlinehome.us/w". I thought it is a back-up-site of the old site, and I understand it would be remove when the moving is settled.
The link to Wagawiki from Drupal main page introduces this s1524 site. The previous URL to Wagawiki( http://www.thejapanesepage.com/w/index.php?title=Main_Page) looks broken.
An internal site link using URL(e.g. link to a talk page) is also broken. Is there any solutions? --[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 22:23, 8 March 2008 (EST)

Talk:Zengargoyles ToDo List

Coco — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 03:23:13 GMT

Coco:

Zen-san, Thank you for your great efforts and time to manage Wagawiki/chat rooms. 

Zen-san, I am wondering this page is on "s152453462.onlinehome.us/w". I thought it is a back-up-site of the old site, and I understand it would be remove when the moving is settled.
The link to Wagawiki from Drupal main page introduces this s1524 site. The previous URL to Wagawiki( www.thejapanesepgage.com/w) looks broken.
An internal site link using URL(e.g. link to a talk page) is also broken. Is there any solutions? --[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 22:23, 8 March 2008 (EST)

Japanese Grammar FAQ

Coco — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 03:09:33 GMT

Coco: /* '''Concerning ??? (Saseru)''' */

Under Construction... *

Although this is technically a FAQ, most of the contents are not actually frequently asked questions. They are in fact, grammatical problems which have occured to Japanese students in the past- and the aim of this FAQ is to make sure that these problems can be reviewed in a clear simple format by all students of Japanese. Effectively, the [[Japanese Grammar FAQ]] is simillar to a reference library, or an archive. It doesn't teach grammar, it shows examples of problems which have occured in the past relating to Japanese grammar. Hopefully in time this page will expand and provide our community with another excellent resource for studying Japanese.

-[[User:Ongakuka|Ongakuka]]

----
==='''Concerning させる (Saseru)'''===

Sometimes even the best of Japanese students will come across a confusing grammar problem where they least expect it.

[[User:Keatonatron|Keatonatron]]: Just some clarification on a fairly basic topic: Can the させる form be used when someone unintentionally is the cause for someone to do something? In other words, instead of "the teacher made the student do his homework" can you use it for "he made me laugh" or "you made me forget?"

Technically this is true. Just as we say, "You made me laugh" in English the same can be done in Japanese. Take the sentence: "Jill made the teacher laugh." We do not assume Jill is forcing the teacher to laugh, we assume that is unintentional.

*ジルは先生を笑わせた
*Jiru wa sensei o warawaseta
*Jill made the teacher laugh

Now grammatically this is all fine and dandy. But unfortunately, in Japanese this has a somewhat sarcastic nuance to it. The example above gives the impression that Jill perhaps made a fool of herself, causing the teacher to laugh. Of course, this isn't the type of nuance we're after.

Now look at this example:

*先生はジルに笑ってしまった
*Jiru wa sensei ni waratte shimatta
*By Jill, the teacher was made to laugh

The above translation may be a little sketchy, but it illustrates the effect given by てしまった(-te shimatta.) (See [[Grammar page 7#.E3.81.97.E3.81.BE.E3.81.A3.E3.81.9F.E3.80.81.E3.81.A1.E3.82.83.E3.81.A3.E3.81.9F|Lesson 7]] for more on しまった)

You can visit the original discussion threads [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3764 -saseru -sareru te, nani?],[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3622 Causitive Form Question],[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3136#27886| させる] where you may ask any further questions concerning this topic.

----
===='''Comparing Confusing Conditionals'''====

As most textbooks will tell you, there are many words for "if" in the Japanese language. If you have not yet encountered these, I recommend you visit [http://thejapanesepage.com/w/index.php?title=Grammar_page_4#if this page].

The problems usually arise with the conditionals たら and ーれば、both of which we are told mean "if." So what is the difference between the two? Is one more formal than the other? Is there a certain situation where one is preferrable, or are they interchangeable?

These are important questions to consider. In my belief, no two words are the same; context and nuance play a big role in Japanese and even in English. For example, the following English words all have the same meaning- but each has a slightly different nuance: but, still, though, although, however, nevertheless.

'''1. Is one conditional more formal than the other?'''

As far as たら and れば are concerned, no. Formalities are usually expressed at the end of a sentence, and most sentences with these conditionals take this structure:

* 日本に行ったら、すしを食べます

'''2. Are たら and れば interchangeable?'''

No. It all depends on ''what you want to say.''

[[Category:Grammar]]

'''3. Ok, so how do I use them?'''

This is the final and most important question. You see, the flaw is actually in ''English'', not Japanese. Observe the two sentences below:

* If it rains tomorrow, I'll use an umbrella.

* If you buy that one, you'll have no money left.

Unlike the first example, the second example has a definite nuance to it. If you buy that one, you will have no money left. It is a ''fact''. Whereas in the first example, there is no definite state implied. The rain isn't going to force me to use an umbrella, I just want to use one because it is going to rain.

たら would be more suitable in the first example. れば would be more suitable in the second example.

* 明日雨が降ったら、かさを使います if it rains tomorrow, I expect I'll have to use my umbrella

* それを買えば、お金がありません if you buy that one, you will have no money left (FACT)

Talk:Conditionals

Coco — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 03:02:29 GMT

Coco: /* Difference between ?? and ?? (tense) */

:Do you want to merge the main article to here, coco?
::Yes, I'd like to merge this article to the main page article, if it's possible. 
:: もし可能なら、この記事をメインページに移動させたいと思います。--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 11:04, 16 July 2007 (EDT)
::: So, a merge from article to discussion, and then a copy and paste from discussion to article. Does that make sense?
:: I copied some part of article about と( gray colored sentences). Did it a way you suggested? :) --[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 03:06, 18 July 2007 (EDT)
:::Yeah, thanks coco. Do you want the conjugation charts in the article?
:I guess making と conditional is very easy because words never conjugate. But it might be kind to put the charts for the beginner. Do you think the conjugation charts is needed?--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 10:36, 22 July 2007 (EDT)　
:::You going any place interesting? [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 19:48, 20 July 2007 (EDT)

=と=
「～と」is used when sentence1 and sentence2 have a constant, repetitive, or continuous relationship. The conditional と expresses a phenomenon that constantly occurs with the condition described in sentence 1. 
と is a subordinate conjunction which makes S1 a condition, and S2 a result. The nuance that is implied by usage of と is this: if the condition of S1 is satisfied, then the result of S2 follows naturally (and will always be true provided S1 holds true).

==Conjugation==
{| class="wikitable"
|
|'''Dictionary form'''
|'''と conjugation'''
|'''Reading'''
|-
|'''Nouns'''
|休日 小学校
|休日だと 小学校だと
|きゅうじつだと しょうがっこうだと
|-
|'''な adjectives'''
|立派な きれいな
|立派だと きれいだと
|りっぱだと きれいだと
|-
|'''い adjectives'''
|いい 大きい
|いいと 大きいと
|いいと おおきいと
|-
|'''Verbs'''
|来る 飲む
|来ると 飲むと
|くると のむと
|}

==Repetitive phenomenon==
===Example 1===
sentence 1: 春になる。 (spring comes) 
sentence 2: 花が咲き始める。 (flowers start to bloom) 
To express the relationship between the two:
:○[春になる]'''と'''[花が咲き始める]。 
:When spring comes, flowers start to bloom. 

You can replace と and たら 
:○春にな<del>る</del><ins>ったら、</ins>花が咲き始める。 

===Example 2===
sentence 1: コインを自動販売機に入れる。 (insert coins in a vending machine) 
sentence 2: ジュースが出てくる。 (juice comes out) 
To express the relationship between the two:
:○[コインを自販機に入れる]'''と'''[ジュースが出てくる]。 
:When you insert your coins in a vending machine, drinks come out. 
Note that 自販機 is an abbreviation of 自動販売機. 

You can put たら instead of と 
:○コインを自販機に入れ<del>る</del><ins>たら、</ins>ジュースが出てくる。 

===Example 3===
sentence 1: 掃除機をかける。 (use a vacuum cleaner) 
sentence 2: ネコが[騒ぐ/怒り出す]。 (cat makes a noise) 
To express the relationship between the two:
:○[掃除機をかける]'''と'''[ネコが騒ぐ/怒り出す]。 
:When you use a vacuum cleaner, the cat makes a noise. 

You can put たら instead of と 
:○掃除機をかけ<del>る</del><ins>たら、</ins>猫が騒ぐ。 

See more usages of [http://thejapanesepage.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Particles conjunction と].

==Personal expressions==
You can ask with ～と for someone's physical condition as a repetitive behavior. 

===Example 1===
sentence 1: リンゴをかじる。 
sentence 2: 歯茎から血がでませんか? 
To express the relationship between the two:
:○リンゴをかじる'''と'''歯茎から血がでませんか? (An advertising slogan from a tooth paste brand.) 
:Don't you get (repeated) bleeding from the gums when you bite an apple? 
Also you can express your physical condition or repetitive behavior under the condition expressed in the sentence 1.

===Example 2===
sentence 1: 春になる。 
sentence 2: クシャミがでる。 
To express the relationship between the two:
:○春になる'''と'''、クシャミがでます。私、花粉症なんです。 
:I sneeze a lot in spring season. I have an allergy to pollen. 

===Example 3===
sentence 1: 寒くなる。 
sentence 2: ミスタードーナツで勉強した。 
To express the relationship between the two:
:○寒くなるとよく[http://www.misterdonut.jp/index.html ミスタードーナツ]で勉強した。(repetitive behavior) 
:When it got cold, I often studied at Mr. Donuts. (From [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=62 this thread].) 
In this case, we rather add [[もの]]だった/[[もの]]でした on the end of sentence to express a speaker's reminiscence. 
:○寒くなると、よくミスタードーナツで勉強したものだった。 
:○寒くなると、よくミスタードーナツで勉強したものでした。 

==Wrong usages of Conditional とsentences ==

You can find a interrelationship easily between sentence1 and sentence2 which are connected with と. 
You can not put following types of sentences after the conditional と. 
ⅰ) speaker's will, wish/hope/desire 
ⅱ) imperative sentence 
ⅲ) request 
Since と represents a natural consequence, it cannot be used when the result S2 is dependent on volitional action of someone. For example, S2 cannot be something like a command, invitation, or suggestion. Here is an example of incorrect usage of と:

===Example 1===
sentence 1: 春になる。 
sentence 2: 花見に行きませんか。(asking invitation) 
:× 春になる'''と'''、花見に行きませんか 
:○ 春になっ'''たら'''、花見に行きませんか。 
:Shall we go to the sakura-watching-party when spring comes? 

sentence 2: 花見に行く予定だ。(telling plan/will) 
:×春になる'''と'''、花見く予定だ。 
:○春になっ'''たら'''、花見に行く予定だ。
:I'm planning to go watch sakura flowers when spring comes.

===Example 2===
sentence 1: コインを入れる。 
sentence 2: ボタンを押してください。(request) 
:× コインを入れる'''と''' 、ボタンを押してください。 
:○ コインを入れ'''たら'''、ボタンを押してください。
:Please push a button when/after you insert your coins.

===Example 3===
sentence 1: 掃除機をかける 
sentence 2: 窓を開けた方がいい (suggestion/advice) 
:×掃除機をかける'''と''' 、窓を開けた方がいい。 
:○掃除機をかける'''なら'''、窓を開けた方がいい。
:It would be better to open windows if you use a vacuum cleaner. 
The speaker would say this if it seems you're about to use a vacuum cleaner．If you'd like to say this as a　general consideration,
:○掃除機をかける'''とき(時)は'''、窓を開けた方がいい。 
:It would be better to open windows when you use a vacuum cleaner. 

===Usuful expressions===
そうしない'''と''' = otherwise 
さもない'''と''' (conj,exp) otherwise; else; if not so; KD ( from WWWJDIC)

寒け'''れば'''コートを着なさい。[そうしない'''と'''/さもない'''と''']風邪をひきますよ。(mother's speech)= If you feel cold, put on your overcoat. Otherwise you will catch a cold. 

急いでください。[そうしない'''と'''/さもない'''と''']、会議に間に合いません。=Please hurry or else you/we will be late for the meeting. 

シートペルトをしてください。[そうしない'''と'''/さもない'''と''' ]警察に違反キップを切られますよ。 
Fasten the seatbelt. Otherwise the police will give you a ticket. 

You can make these forms more casual with V+negative+ と. 
(in-group conversation) 
コートを'''着ないと'''風邪ひくよ。 
'''急がないと'''会議に間に合わないよ。 
シートベルトを'''しないと'''おまわりさんに違反キップを切られるよ。 

=なら=
「～なら」is used when a speaker expresses his/her own opinion, judgment, or command which can not be expressed in the 「～と」conditional sentence. 
One of the features of this usage would be the reply to the person's (whom you are talking) topic. When using なら form, you can say your opinions or suggestions about specific suppositions which the person had just mentioned. 

==Conjugation==
{| class="wikitable"
|
|'''Dictionary form'''
|'''なら conjugation'''
|'''Reading'''
|-
|'''Nouns'''
|休日 小学校
|休日なら 小学校なら
|きゅうじつなら しょうがっこうなら
|-
|'''な adjectives'''
|立派な きれいな
|立派なら きれいなら
|りっぱなら きれいなら
|-
|'''い adjectives'''
|いい 大きい
|いい（の/ん）なら 大きい（の/ん）なら
|いい（の/ん）なら おおきい（の/ん）なら
|-
|'''Verbs'''
|来る 飲む
|来る（の/ん）なら 飲む（の/ん）なら
|くる（の/ん）なら のむ（の/ん）なら
|}

===Usages as topic taking ===
e.g. (in-group conversation.)
田中: ''夏休みには''、海外旅行にいきたいな。
Tanaka: I'd like to go abroad during summer vacation.
山田: ''夏休みに行く'''''なら'''、早く予約しない '''と''' 飛行機のチケットがとれなくなるよ。
Yamada : If you go abroad during summer vacation, you'd better hurry to book,
otherwise, you'll miss an airline ticket.

It might have a sound like " I suggest '''as to''' your supposition (in this case the trip during summer vacation)".

「Verb＋なら」 is often interchangeable with 　verb＋の(ん)だったら/verb+ならば.
::'''ん'''だったら is from '''の'''だったら. The particle の(''no'') is often changed into ん(''nn'') in colloquial speech.

e.g
山田:''夏休みに行く''ん'''だったら'''、早く予約しないと飛行機のチケットがとれなくなるよ。(frank)
山田:''夏休みに行く'''''ならば'''、早く予約しないと飛行機のチケットがとれなくなりますよ。( bit solid)

e.g.
高橋: 天気予報によると、週末に ''台風が来る'' らしいですよ。
Takahashi: According to a weather forecast, the typhoon is coming this weekend.
佐藤: そうですか。''台風が来る'''''なら'''、週末は外出しない方がいいかもしれませんね。
Satou : Oh, really? We might not want to go out this weekend if the typhoon will come.

Mr./Ms. Satou might say
佐藤 : そうですか。''台風が来る''ん'''だったら'''、週末は外出しない方がいいかもしれませんね。
佐藤 : そうですか。''台風が来る'''''ならば'''、週末は外出しない方がいいかもしれませんね。

===Usages as topic making===
Also you can provide a topic using the なら form, which is not a response speech.

e.g. (in-group) 
もし僕がマイケル・ジャクソン'''なら'''、チンパンジーじゃなくて、イルカを飼うな。 
もし僕がマイケル・ジャクソン'''だったら'''、チンパンジーじゃなくてイルカを飼うな。 
If I were Michael Jackson, I would keep a dolphin rather than a chimpanzee as a pet.

===Usages as limited condition ===
e.g. 
山本さんは豚肉'''なら'''食べられますが、牛肉は食べられません。 
山本さんは豚肉'''でしたら'''召し上がりますが、牛肉は召し上がりません。more polite expression 
Ms./Mr. Yamamoto can eat it if it is pork, but can't eat beef. 
The meaning is almost the same as 山本さんは豚肉'''は'''食べられますが、牛肉は食べられません。( Ms./Mr.Yamanoto can eat pork, but cannot eat beef.) However you can emphasis what food Yamamoto-san can eat or not by using なら. 
e.g. 
今日は会えませんが、明日の午後'''なら'''会えます。 
Although I'm not available today, I will be able to meet you/someone if it is tomorrow afternoon. 
This is almost the same as 今日は会えませんが、明日の午後'''は'''会えます。Using なら has the nuance of limited condition, like saying "tomorrow afternoon only". 

=ば(eba)=
==Conjugation==
{| class="wikitable"
|
|'''Dictionary form'''
|'''ば conjugation'''
|'''Reading'''
|-
|'''Nouns'''
|休日 小学校
|休日なら（ば） 小学校なら（ば）
|きゅうじつなら（ば） しょうがっこうなら（ば）
|-
|'''な adjectives'''
|立派な きれいな
|立派なら（ば） きれいなら（ば）
|りっぱなら（ば） きれいなら（ば）
|-
|'''い adjectives'''
|いい 大きい
|よければ 大きければ
|よければ おおきければ
|-
|'''Irregular verbs'''
|来る 勉強する
|来れば 勉強すれば
|くれば べんきょうすれば
|-
|'''Ichidan verbs'''
|あげる 食べる
|あげれば 食べれば
|あげれば たべれば
|-
|'''Godan verbs'''
|もらう 言う
|もらえば 言えば
|もらえば いえば
|}

==Examples==
A requirement/conditions to make a status of sentence 2 is placed in sentence 1.
:What's the Japanese for this sentence? [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 20:46, 18 August 2007 (EDT)
:: I couldn't understand what I wanted to say ＾＾　 probably
:::「文2の状態を構成する要件/条件が、文1に置かれます。」--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 08:19, 21 August 2007 (EDT)
:::: May I suggest: "A precondition of sentence 2 is placed in sentence 1."

::It sounds great. Thanks.
::Now I notice my explanation is not a feature of ば. It would apply to all conditionals. I mean my explanation was bad. 
::: Your explanations are very helpful and appreciated.
:::: As another question, is ば conditional [http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%90%8C%E5%80%A4 "if and only if"] or just "if"? [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 14:24, 21 August 2007 (EDT)
::I think ならば could have a nuance of " only if". I suppose it might be ～の場合に限って. What do you think about ～さえ + ば～ form. (これはJLPT 2級文法です。) 
::For example; 
::田中さん'''さえ'''飛行機に乗り遅れなけ'''れば'''、今ごろはみんなハワイに着いているのになぁ。 
::: If only Tanaka had made it, we'd be in Hawaii right about now. (?)
::水'''さえ'''飲んでい'''れば'''、人間は30日も生きられるらしい。 
::: If you just drink water, you can live 30 days. (?)
:: Do you think さえ+ ば would be " (if and)only if " ?

::On the other hand, 塵も積もれば山となる, 降れば土砂降り、犬もあるけば棒にあたる don't have its meaning. Also ば in " 3時になれば、(先生がいらっしゃいます。)" would not be " if and only if ".
::So, " if and only if" might not be an explanation of ば. 
::Would these be a sort of answer? Or am I misreading your question? --[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 09:38, 22 August 2007 (EDT)
:::わかりました。「ばconditional」、「iff」のような表現じゃなさそうですね。ご説明ありがとうございます。
:::
::: Intended: I see, So it sounds like the ば conditional isn't iff. Thanks for your explanation. [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 20:29, 22 August 2007 (EDT)

1) 
sentence 1 (postulation)= 天気がいい sentence 2 = 東京からも富士山が見える。 
天気がよけれ'''ば''' 、東京からも富士山が見えます。 
You can see Mt.Fuji from even Tokyo if the weather is clear. 
(You might not be able to see Mt.Fuji from Tokyo if the weather isn't clear.) 
:Both of these sentences sound good. [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 20:46, 18 August 2007 (EDT)
:: ありがとうございます。--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 08:19, 21 August 2007 (EDT)
This is very similar to ～と usage because the presupposition expressed in the sentence 1 forms the status expressed in sentence 2, has a repetitive interrelationship. 
So you can say

天気がいい'''と''' 、東京からも富士山が見えます。 
晴れてい'''れば'''、東京からも富士山が見えます。 
晴れている'''と''' 、東京からも富士山が見えます。 

2) 
sentence 1 = 3時になる sentence 2 = 岡田先生が来る (いらっしゃる is the 尊敬語 of 来る.) 

3時にな'''れば'''、岡田先生がいらっしゃいます。 
Professor Okada will come here when it is 3 o'clock. 
You　can say also 
3時になる'''と'''、岡田先生がいらっしゃいます。 
When it is 3 o'clock, professor Okada comes here． 

「3時になる'''と''' 、岡田先生がいらっしゃいます。」implies that the professor repetitively comes up there at 3:00 every day. Meanwhile, 「3時にな'''れば'''、岡田先生がいらっしゃいます」means the speaker knows the professor's schedule on that day, does't mention the other days.

3) 
sentence 1( postulation)= 雨が降る。 sentence 2 = 花火大会は中止。 
雨が降'''れば'''、花火大会は中止です。 
The fireworks exhibition won't be held if it rains. 
:Good. [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 20:50, 18 August 2007 (EDT)
:: ありがとう。--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 08:19, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

「雨が降る'''と'''、花火大会は中止されます」rather has a tone of something like an empirical rule.( e.g.: Generally, fireworks exhibitions are canceled when it rains.) But 「雨が降'''れば'''、花火大会は中止です」 mentions about "The fireworks exhibition" which you are anxious about.

4) 
You can express a contrary-to-fact condition by using conditional ば. In this case sentence 2 is always the past tense.
:Pick either:
::express a contrary-to-fact condition
::express contrary-to-fact conditions
:[[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 21:00, 18 August 2007 (EDT)
::: 修正しました。ありがとう。--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 08:19, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

30分早く起き'''れば'''、飛行機の出発時間に間に合'''った'''。 
If I got up 30 minutes earlier, I would have been in time for the departure of the airplane. ( But I failed to catch the flight). 
:If I got up 30 minutes earlier, I would have been in time for the departure of the airplane.
:
:Also,
::"catch up with the flight" sounds a little better. "catch the flight" is good too. [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 21:08, 18 August 2007 (EDT)
::: ありがとうございます。--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 08:19, 21 August 2007 (EDT)
In this case, adding のに on the end of the sentence can express your feelings stronger. 
30分早く起き'''れば'''、飛行機の出発時間に間に合'''った'''のに。

雨が降っていなけ'''れば'''、花火がみられ'''た'''のに。
If it didn't rain, I would have been able to see the fireworks.( But I failed to see the fireworks.)
:I'll let you correct this sentence using the word "would". :) [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 21:08, 18 August 2007 (EDT)
:: "If it didn't rain, I would have been able to see the fireworks." (?)
:: I hope the day of the fireworks won't rain so that I wouldn't have to use this usage. :) --[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 08:19, 21 August 2007 (EDT)
::: Hehe, well done though. [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 14:30, 21 August 2007 (EDT)
::ありがとう。＾＾修正しました。--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 09:38, 22 August 2007 (EDT)

=== wrong usages of ～ば form===

You can not use ～ば(eba) form in that kind of situations: 

1) the accidental events 
×商店街を歩いていれば、雨に降られた。 
○商店街を歩いていたら、雨に降られた。 
When I was walking through the shopping mall, rain fell over me. (?) 

×新聞を読んでいれば、おもしろい記事をみつけた。 
○新聞を読んでいたら、おもしろい記事をみつけた。 
I found an interesting article when/while I was reading a news paper.(?) 

2) directions (after someone satisfied the conditions.) 
×この伝言を聞'''けば'''、電話をください。 
○この伝言を聞い'''たら'''、電話をください。 
Please call me back after you checked this message. <be>

×報告書が完成す'''れば'''、すぐに提出してください。 
○報告書が完成し'''たら'''、すぐに提出してください。 
Please submit your report as soon as you made up it.(?)/ Please submit your report immediately when you finished it.(?)

*「～ば」 forms in the proverbs.
降'''れば'''土砂降(どしゃぶ)り。= It doesn't rain but it pours. 
ちり(塵)も積も'''れば'''山となる。= Penny and penny laid up will be many. /Many small make a great. 
犬も歩'''けば'''棒にあたる。= The beast that goes always never wants blows./The dog that trots about finds a bone./A flying crow always catches something.

* Useful expressions (probably) 
You can ask " how can I do/how shold I do" with どうす'''れば'''. 
どうすれば、[きっぷ/チケット]を安く買えますか? = How can I buy the ticket cheaper? (?)(*Generally チケットis used for flight tickets, きっぷ is used for train tickets.) 
どうすれば、そこに泊まれますか? = How can I stay over nights there? (?) 
どうすれば、そこに行けるのかわかりません。= I don't know how I can get there.(?) 
どうすれば、パンディオンをインストールできるのかわかりません。= I don't know what to do to install the Pandion. (?) 
どうすればいいか、教えてください。= Please tell me how shold I do.(?) 

=たら=
「～たら」 is widely used as a conditional form.

e.g. 
15歳の頃の自分と対面できるとし'''たら'''、言っておきたいことは? 
If you were able to meet with yourself aged around 15 years old, what would you like to say to her/him? (?)

In this case
○15歳の頃の自分と対面できる'''なら''' 
○15歳の頃の自分と対面できるとす'''れば''' 
×15歳の頃の自分と対面できる'''と''' 

1日がもし25時間だっ'''たら'''、その1時間で何をしますか? 
If one day had 25hours, what will you do during the extra hour? (?) 
In this case 
○1日がもし25時間'''なら'''/'''ならば''' (→ See なら uesge above) 
○1日がもし25時間だとす'''れば''' 
×1日がもし25時間だと 

===Difference between なら and たら (tense)===

Please care the tense, otherwise the turn goes upside down.

大学に<ins>入る</ins>'''なら'''、本をたくさん読みなさい。(more about [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4447 なさい])
大学に<ins>入る</ins>ん'''だったら'''、本をたくさん読みなさい。
大学に<ins>入る</ins>のであ'''れば'''、本をたくさん読みなさい。
Read tons of books if you are going to a university/college.(?)
All of these are saying same things. This is an advice/suggestion to read books for the preparation of an enrollment.　

大学に<ins>入った</ins>'''ら'''、本をたくさん読みなさい。
Read tons of books when you go to a university/college.(?)
Read tons of books when you become a university/college student.(?)

This is an advice/suggestion to undergraduate students/college student. A speaker don't mention about the preparation for an enrollment. Just advises your attitude for learning as a college/university student. 

The following slogan, which is used as an prohibition campaign of drinkers' driving, would be good to learn the difference between なら and たら/だら.

「飲ん'''だら'''乗るな、乗る'''なら'''飲むな!」
Do not drive a car when you've been drinking,
and do not drink (any alcohol) if you are going to drive a car.

飲ん'''だら''' is the conditional of posteriority. This command mentions "after your action(= drank some alcohol)". 
乗る'''なら''' is the conditional of " your intention". This sentence directs something before you act(= drive a car) 

* Useful expression ( probably) 
'''～したらどうですか'''＝　How about if ～/why don't you ～ 
もう少し早い電車で行っ'''たら'''、どうですか? 
How about if we/I/you take( took?) the earier train to get there? (?) 
そのホテルで２泊し'''たら'''、どうですか? 
How about if I/we/you stay( stayed?) two nights at that hotel? (?) 
帰りを飛行機ではなく、夜行バスに'''したら'''どうですか？ 
How about if I/we/you take ( took?) the midnight bus instead of the flight as a return trip? (?)
::[http://thejapanesepage.com/w/index.php?title=Grammar_page_5#How..._.E3.81.A9.E3.81.86 See also どう]
::[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8201&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15 Shin1ro-san's] post.

不要スレッド

Coco — Sat, 08 Mar 2008 07:26:23 GMT

Coco:

Read before posting

Coco — Sat, 08 Mar 2008 07:23:30 GMT

Coco: Link

Thank you for visiting theJapanesePage.com forums! To help make sure everyone gets the most out of these forums, here are a [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=138 few rules] to help everyone play nice:

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Forum Etiquette

Coco — Sat, 08 Mar 2008 07:19:55 GMT

Coco: /* Etiquette for online forums */ links

===Ok, So you're New===

Everyone was new at one time or another, but that won't draw much mercy when you come into a new place and start stepping on people's toes instead of shaking their hands. Everyone has standards of respect; failing to meet these standards will draw contempt and ridicule, but there is hope. All you need to do is take a little time to show others respect by composing your messages seriously. I'm making this list because even though some of these should fall under the heading: Common Sense, the others are truly learned behaviors. If you've never seen a list like this before--rest assured--these rules will serve you well on any forum. 
日本人の参加者も増えてきたので、念のため日本語を書き添えます。(基本的にはネット常識の範囲ですが、やや異なる点もあります。)

==Etiquette for online forums==

1. Always read at least 50 posts before posting! 少なくとも過去1カ月程度の書き込みに目を通した上で投稿しましょう。 
:Nothing draws ridicule faster than asking a question right above someone else who asked the same question or correcting someone that's already been corrected. At the very least, read through an entire thread before posting to make sure someone else didn't already make your point. If you feel that the thread has too many pages to read them all, skip to the end and read the last 2 pages before posting on the thread. 
2. Always read the [http://s152453462.onlinehome.us/w/index.php?title=Just_the_FAQs FAQs] or any "[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=138 Read before posting]" messages. 「FAQ」と「Read before posting」に定期的に目を通すようにしましょう。 
:Posting a question answered in the FAQ will not make you friends. "Read before Posting" rules usually specify forum specific rules that often go beyond standard etiquette. Be sure to read it. 
:Japという略称は使わないように勧告されていますので、日本人の方も使わないようにお願いします。この呼称が広まることで特に不快な思いをなさるのは在外邦人・日系人の方々です。[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1502 参照] 同様にGaijinという言葉を不快に感じる方が少なからずいることはFAQにあるスレッドのとおりです。 
3. Write respectfully. 礼節をもって書き込みましょう。 
:This in not just modes of address but showing good grammar and spelling as well as following standard internet protocols: such as avoiding writing in ALL CAPS and using pertinent thread titles. Forums are not like a chat room with text wizzing by. Posters are expected to take the time to write well. Remember, if you respect your readers your readers will respect you. Learning a language means you take effective communication seriously. Prove it. 
:TJPのメンバーは国籍も年齢もさまざまです。読者はあなたより年長者で社会経験が豊富な方である可能性も高いのです。また書き込んだ日本語が学習され、そのまま使用される可能性がありますし、どの程度の敬意表現であるか問われ場合もあります。[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=10472 (参照)] 良識ある言葉遣いを心掛けてください。 
4. Don't spam. 回答がつかない場合でも催促するのはやめましょう。 
:Make one post. Always give at least 24 hours before complaining no one answered your post. If you answer two or more people, edit all your responses into one post. 
5. Before posting, google your question. 質問する前に検索サイトで調べてみましょう。 
:If your question is answered in the top 5 google hits, people will consider you too lazy to bother helping. 
6. Use the forum search function. フォーラム検索を充分に活用しましょう。
:If the forum has a search function, use it before posting. 
7. Don't ask for help without showing that you did make an effort on your own. TJPは英語の翻訳サイトではありません。 
:If you ask for help and show you made an effort, you automatically made friends who will extremely helpful. 
8. Don't Necropost without cause. コメントしたい議論の投稿日を確認するようにしましょう。 
:Necroposting is posting on a thread that was dead and buried and bringing it back to life. You avoid necroposting by looking at the Posted date. If the thread was controversial let it stay buried; if the thread seems pertinent then it should be ok to necropost. The important point is not to chime in on a heated discussion that ended years ago. 
:[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7662 参照] 
9. Be brief. 質問は簡潔にまとめましょう。 
:The more concise your post the more people that will read it and potentially reply.
10. Use white space. 読みやすいように工夫して書きましょう。 
:Big blocks of text are difficult to read. If you break up your paragraphs with a full blank line, more people will read them.
11. Don't post big pictures in the text. 大きすぎる写真の投稿は避けましょう。 
:Big pictures tend to ruin the forum formatting. Always post big pictures as a link, thumbnail links are ok.
:画面のレイアウトを乱すような大きな写真の投稿は避けてください。 
12. Avoid posting long URLs. 長いURLを引用する場合はリンクを埋め込みましょう。 
:Long URLs can also ruin the page formatting and just look bad. Some members use tinyurl.com but I suggest just making a link. Type the text you want to link then highlight it. On the composition window there will be a button for URL. Click it with the text highlighted and the text will now be surrounded by <nowiki>[url]your text[/url]</nowiki> after the first url type = then paste the URL. so it will look like this. <nowiki>[url=http://www.google.com]Google[/url]</nowiki> If you post like this, the readers will just see the link for Google with the rest hidden. 
:1行では納まらないURLアドレスが画面のレイアウトを乱すことがあるそうです。そのため長いURLを記載する場合は、リンクの埋め込みが推奨されています。[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3029 参照] 埋め込み方法は<nowiki>[url=http://www.google.com]Google[/url]</nowiki> です。リンク先のアドレスの前に[url= を入れ、リンクしたい言葉(ここではGoogle)の先頭を ] で閉じ、その言葉の末尾に[/url]を入れます。 
13. Don't hijack threads. スレッドの乗っ取りはやめましょう。 
:Making a post that does not even relate to a previous post on the thread is considered hijacking. Another form of hijacking is to transform someone else's thread into your own by asking a new question on someone else's thread. The standard rule for posting is one thread one question. It's best to start a new thread if you have a new question. Be warned, hijacking a tread is a form of contempt. If regular members start hijacking your thread, then it's usually a sign you broke one of the rules of etiquette. 
:スレッド・ハイジャックの定義は微妙ですが、他の人が立てたスレッドで会話の流れにそぐわない質問をすることは嫌われています。英語表現について質問する場合も、この点に注意が必要です。[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4779#48243 参照] [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5684&rowstart=20 参照] 
:ただしスレッドの趣旨から考えて[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=6643 英語の語法と質問]は、英語に関する質問である限りスレッド・ハイジャックにはあたりません。 
:
14. Don't insult the mods. 管理者・運営者へは敬意を払いましょう。 
:This is one of those common sense things I mentioned.
:
15. Don't troll. 煽りを目的とした投稿はやめましょう。 
:Trolling is deliberately stirring controversy. There are different types of Trolls, but all like to stir up trouble.
:
16. Don't feed the trolls. 煽りや荒らしにエサを与えるのはやめましょう。 
:Now that you know what a troll is, you know how to fight them. Trolls feed on attention. If you ignore them they die the slow painful death they deserve.
:
17. Don't flame. 冷静に議論しましょう。 
:If you have a problem with a post, only address your problems with the post. Never insult the poster. Flaming is dedicating an entire post, or series of posts, to insulting another poster.
18. Never ask another poster to break the rules of Internet Safety. 個人情報に配慮しましょう。 
:Asking for personal information, such as e-mail addresses, on a public forum is a ''Bad Thing''. If you are unfamiliar with basic internet safety then go learn that, then come back. Internet Safety first. 
:個人名(フルネーム)や住所が記載された質問は、注意を促すようにしましょう。[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8227#95821 参考][http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6845 参照]
:また趣旨が極めて不可解なものは運営者への通知をお願いします。[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3325 参照] 
:
19. Take the time to say thank you. 回答へのお礼を忘れずに。 
:Don't ask a question and never post again on the thread. Then other members will believe you don't value their help.
:基本です。 
:
20. 著作権に配慮しましょう。
:JASRACが権利を持つ歌詞の引用は特に厳しい対応が予想され、サイト運営者の責任が問われる可能性もあります。質問者の引用が著作権に抵触するか否か判断の上で対応をお願いします。同様に質問する際にも著作権にご配慮ください。 

[[Category:TheJapanesePage.Com]]

A learner's progressing questions

Coco — Sat, 08 Mar 2008 07:02:01 GMT

Coco: /* 2006 */ links

The more you study eagerly, the more questions arise. A lot of learners have questions which have similarities. That said, let's take a look at the questions of Tanuki-san, as an eager learner. 
Some of which have already been asked on TJP threads before [[User:Tanuki|Tanuki]]-san contributed, some of them may be questions which other learners might ask on the forum in the future.
===2005===

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1455 Numbers…] (Date: 26/09/05) 
Keyword(s): Arabic numbers, kanji 
Synopsis: I asked when should Arabic numbers be used and when kanji. 
reference:
[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5012 15 Versus 十五]

Link:[[Kanji_numerals_vs._Arabic_numerals]]

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1477 Japanese names](Date: 29/09/05) 
Keyword(s): Japanese names, kanji 
Synopsis: I asked how Japanese people deal with their kanji-names.

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1592 particle が] ( Date: 12/10/05) 
Keyword(s): potential verbs, が/を 
Synopsis: I asked why was が used instead of を in a phrase with a potential verb. 
[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8248 Related thread]

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1871 勉強] (Date: 18/11/05) 
Keyword(s): 日本語の勉強,の/を 
Synopsis: I asked the difference between ～を勉強します and ～の勉強をします. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2089 分 and 通 - Meaning] (Date: 16/12/05) 
Keyword(s): 分 and 通, counter :-P 
Synopsis: I was confused with the meanings of 分 and 通. I don’t think it’s that useful, but who knows… 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2429 Formal -> Informal] (Date: 16/01/06) 
Keyword(s): Informal Japanese 
Synopsis: I was confused on how to write informal Japanese. Go figure. 

===2006===

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?fd=6&t=2608 Virtually polite?] (Date: 30/01/06) 
Keyword(s): penpal, politeness 
Synopsis: I was wondering how polite I should be to a Japanese penpal. 
[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/readarticle.php?article_id=210 敬称] 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2770 Origin of “Japan”] (Date: 15/02/06) 
Keyword(s): Nihon, 日本, Chinese, Cantonese 
Synopsis: I was wondering why Japan is called “Japan” in English and not “Nihon” or something. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2931 Comparative](Date: 04/03/05) 
Keyword(s): comparative in Japanese 
Synopsis: I asked how to form the comparative in Japanese. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2964 potential form question] (Date: 06/03/06) 
Keyword(s): できる, ～ことができる 
Synopsis: I was trying to understand the potential form. I’m actually quite proud of this thread hehe. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2997 Polite speech and education](Date: 08/03/06) 
Keyword(s): polite speech, well-educated, civilized 
Synopsis: I wondered if there are people who speak in polite speech all the time. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2956&rowstart=0 Osaka accent] (Date: 05/03/06) 
Keyword(s): Osaka accent 
Synopsis: I was wondering what was special about Ôsaka-ben. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3039 Counter for kanji] (Date: 11/03/06) 
Keyword(s): counter for kanji, 字 
Synopsis: I was wondering how should kanji be counted. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3034 Yokatta?] ( Date: 11/03/06) 
Keyword(s): “stating what you see” 
Synopsis: I wondered why “yokatta!” was in the past form. I found keat-san’s post here enlightening, I think that should be included in the WagaWiki somewhere (this “stating what you see” thought). 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3226 should] (Date: 25/03/06) 
Keyword(s): should 
Synopsis: I didn’t know how to say someone “should” do something. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3365 Mixing polite and plain…politely] (Date: 14/04/06) 
Keyword(s): talking to yourself 
Synopsis: I was wondering to what extent could I use plain speech without being rude. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3629 Women using 僕] (Date: 02/05/06) 
Keyword(s): 僕, Ayumi Hamasaki, songs, lyrics, gender change operation ;-) 
Synopsis: Are women who use 僕 tomboyish or what? 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3786 くちゃは？] (Date: 16/05/06) 
Keyword(s): くては、くちゃ、ダメ 
Synopsis: I was a tad bit confused about this contraction. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3917 Just confused] (Date: 26/05/06) 
Keyword(s): だけ、しか、ばかり 
Synopsis: I was confused with these ways to say “just” or “only”. Again, keat-san’s post was enlightening. (Everytime I have doubts about this, I remember his girlfriend-example haha).
 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3885 sentence final かな（か+な）](Date: 23/05/06) 
Keyword(s): かな
Synopsis: Tsk, I remember this thread very well, it gave me a few headaches. I must re-read it.
 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4051 そう](Date: 04/06/06) 
Keyword(s): そう, seems like, likely outcome 
Synopsis: I was wondered about one use of the multi-purpose そう. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4047 I hope you can help me] (Date: 04/06/06) 
Keyword(s): ように 
Synopsis: I wondered how to say “I hope…”. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4448 Katakana - impolite?](Date: 09/07/06) 
Keyword(s): katakana, emphasis 
Synopsis: Is katakana impolite? Apparently, it isn’t. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4445 Short しまう question] (Date: 09/07/06) 
Keyword(s): しまう 
Synopsis: “Popping the しまう back out” when nothing had happened was one of the hardest things I had to learn. Really. I wish I’d read that しまう can’t be used in those cases before!
 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4447 なさい - 2 questions] (Date: 09/07/06) 
Keyword(s): なさい 
Synopsis: Learning more about なさい. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4489 ここでじゃありません？] (Date: 13/07/06) 
Keyword(s): でではありません、でじゃありません 
Synopsis: Just thinking about this thread makes me angry! Probably my least favorite thread ever. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4658 Adding 達 to show plural?] (Date: 24/07/06) 
Keyword(s): 達、等、々 
Synopsis: Questions about some funky plurals. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4779 帰国子女] (Date: 01/08/06) 
Keyword(s): 帰国子女 
Synopsis: 帰国子女 :-P 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4922 ほんと？] (Date: 10/08/06) 
Keyword(s): ほんと、ほんとう、本当 
Synopsis: Is ほんと a typo or what? 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5710 つとめる] (Date: 03/10/06) 
keyword(s):
 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6474 plain in the middle, polite in the end] (Date 04/12/06) 
Keyword: polite、来なかったので、来ませんでしたので、ので、から 
 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6523 くれる or あげる between in-group members] (Date 07/12/06) 
Keyword(s)：あげる　くれる　授受動詞、やりもらい動詞
 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6650 girls and boys - umbrella terms] (Date 21/12/16) 
Keyword(s): 女性、女の子、姉さん

[[category:TheJapanesePage.Com]]

A learner's progressing questions

Coco — Sat, 08 Mar 2008 06:49:22 GMT

Coco: /* 2005 */ Links

The more you study eagerly, the more questions arise. A lot of learners have questions which have similarities. That said, let's take a look at the questions of Tanuki-san, as an eager learner. 
Some of which have already been asked on TJP threads before [[User:Tanuki|Tanuki]]-san contributed, some of them may be questions which other learners might ask on the forum in the future.
===2005===

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1455 Numbers…] (Date: 26/09/05) 
Keyword(s): Arabic numbers, kanji 
Synopsis: I asked when should Arabic numbers be used and when kanji. 
reference:
[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5012 15 Versus 十五]

Link:[[Kanji_numerals_vs._Arabic_numerals]]

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1477 Japanese names](Date: 29/09/05) 
Keyword(s): Japanese names, kanji 
Synopsis: I asked how Japanese people deal with their kanji-names.

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1592 particle が] ( Date: 12/10/05) 
Keyword(s): potential verbs, が/を 
Synopsis: I asked why was が used instead of を in a phrase with a potential verb. 
[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8248 Related thread]

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1871 勉強] (Date: 18/11/05) 
Keyword(s): 日本語の勉強,の/を 
Synopsis: I asked the difference between ～を勉強します and ～の勉強をします. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2089 分 and 通 - Meaning] (Date: 16/12/05) 
Keyword(s): 分 and 通, counter :-P 
Synopsis: I was confused with the meanings of 分 and 通. I don’t think it’s that useful, but who knows… 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2429 Formal -> Informal] (Date: 16/01/06) 
Keyword(s): Informal Japanese 
Synopsis: I was confused on how to write informal Japanese. Go figure. 

===2006===

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=6&thread_id=2608 Virtually polite?] (Date: 30/01/06) 
Keyword(s): penpal, politeness 
Synopsis: I was wondering how polite I should be to a Japanese penpal. 
[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/readarticle.php?article_id=210 敬称] 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=6&thread_id=2770 Origin of “Japan”] (Date: 15/02/06) 
Keyword(s): Nihon, 日本, Chinese, Cantonese 
Synopsis: I was wondering why Japan is called “Japan” in English and not “Nihon” or something. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=7&thread_id=2931 Comparative](Date: 04/03/05) 
Keyword(s): comparative in Japanese 
Synopsis: I asked how to form the comparative in Japanese. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=7&thread_id=2964 potential form question] (Date: 06/03/06) 
Keyword(s): できる, ～ことができる 
Synopsis: I was trying to understand the potential form. I’m actually quite proud of this thread hehe. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=6&thread_id=2997 Polite speech and education](Date: 08/03/06) 
Keyword(s): polite speech, well-educated, civilized 
Synopsis: I wondered if there are people who speak in polite speech all the time. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=6&thread_id=2956&rowstart=0 Osaka accent] (Date: 05/03/06) 
Keyword(s): Osaka accent 
Synopsis: I was wondering what was special about Ôsaka-ben. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=6&thread_id=3039 Counter for kanji] (Date: 11/03/06) 
Keyword(s): counter for kanji, 字 
Synopsis: I was wondering how should kanji be counted. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=6&thread_id=3034 Yokatta?] ( Date: 11/03/06) 
Keyword(s): “stating what you see” 
Synopsis: I wondered why “yokatta!” was in the past form. I found keat-san’s post here enlightening, I think that should be included in the WagaWiki somewhere (this “stating what you see” thought). 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=7&thread_id=3226 should] (Date: 25/03/06) 
Keyword(s): should 
Synopsis: I didn’t know how to say someone “should” do something. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=7&thread_id=3365 Mixing polite and plain…politely] (Date: 14/04/06) 
Keyword(s): talking to yourself 
Synopsis: I was wondering to what extent could I use plain speech without being rude. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=6&thread_id=3629 Women using 僕] (Date: 02/05/06) 
Keyword(s): 僕, Ayumi Hamasaki, songs, lyrics, gender change operation ;-) 
Synopsis: Are women who use 僕 tomboyish or what? 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=7&thread_id=3786 くちゃは？] (Date: 16/05/06) 
Keyword(s): くては、くちゃ、ダメ 
Synopsis: I was a tad bit confused about this contraction. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=7&thread_id=3917 Just confused] (Date: 26/05/06) 
Keyword(s): だけ、しか、ばかり 
Synopsis: I was confused with these ways to say “just” or “only”. Again, keat-san’s post was enlightening. (Everytime I have doubts about this, I remember his girlfriend-example haha).
 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=7&thread_id=3885 sentence final かな（か+な）](Date: 23/05/06) 
Keyword(s): かな
Synopsis: Tsk, I remember this thread very well, it gave me a few headaches. I must re-read it.
 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=7&thread_id=4051 そう](Date: 04/06/06) 
Keyword(s): そう, seems like, likely outcome 
Synopsis: I was wondered about one use of the multi-purpose そう. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=7&thread_id=4047 I hope you can help me] (Date: 04/06/06) 
Keyword(s): ように 
Synopsis: I wondered how to say “I hope…”. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=6&thread_id=4448 Katakana - impolite?](Date: 09/07/06) 
Keyword(s): katakana, emphasis 
Synopsis: Is katakana impolite? Apparently, it isn’t. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=7&thread_id=4445 Short しまう question] (Date: 09/07/06) 
Keyword(s): しまう 
Synopsis: “Popping the しまう back out” when nothing had happened was one of the hardest things I had to learn. Really. I wish I’d read that しまう can’t be used in those cases before!
 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=7&thread_id=4447 なさい - 2 questions] (Date: 09/07/06) 
Keyword(s): なさい 
Synopsis: Learning more about なさい. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=7&thread_id=4489 ここでじゃありません？] (Date: 13/07/06) 
Keyword(s): でではありません、でじゃありません 
Synopsis: Just thinking about this thread makes me angry! Probably my least favorite thread ever. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=7&thread_id=4658 Adding 達 to show plural?] (Date: 24/07/06) 
Keyword(s): 達、等、々 
Synopsis: Questions about some funky plurals. 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=6&thread_id=4779 帰国子女] (Date: 01/08/06) 
Keyword(s): 帰国子女 
Synopsis: 帰国子女 :-P 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=6&thread_id=4922 ほんと？] (Date: 10/08/06) 
Keyword(s): ほんと、ほんとう、本当 
Synopsis: Is ほんと a typo or what? 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=7&thread_id=5710 つとめる] (Date: 03/10/06) 
keyword(s):
 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=7&thread_id=6474 plain in the middle, polite in the end] (Date 04/12/06) 
Keyword: polite、来なかったので、来ませんでしたので、ので、から 
 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=7&thread_id=6523 くれる or あげる between in-group members] (Date 07/12/06) 
Keyword(s)：あげる　くれる　授受動詞、やりもらい動詞
 

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=6&thread_id=6650 girls and boys - umbrella terms] (Date 21/12/16) 
Keyword(s): 女性、女の子、姉さん

[[category:TheJapanesePage.Com]]

Learning Japanese from media

Coco — Sat, 08 Mar 2008 06:43:22 GMT

Coco: /* Crudeness */

Learning the Japanese language from Japanese media can be a great and motivational way to study the language. This article organizes information useful in that pursuit.

==Pitfalls==
===Crudeness===
The language found in Japanese media can differ greatly from what one would encounter in real life Japan, particularly in its excessive crudeness. Individuals may exchange words and expressions frequently that seem innocuous and elicit innocuous responses, but are fighting words to a Japanese person.

The following are some words that are best avoided entirely until you are proficient and well in-tune to the subtle situations where they may be appropriate.
* おのれ -- Highly aggressive "you".
* てめえ -- Highly aggressive "you".
* おまえ -- Highly aggressive "you".
* きさま -- Highly aggressive "you".　[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8242 You can see what will happen by using おまえ and きさま at a public place.]
* 俺【おれ】-- Boastful word for "I". Used historically by the samurai to impress upon others their own greatness. It is used infrequently in modern day Japan and is almost always rude. [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=6&thread_id=8298 See this.]
* [one's own name]さま -- Using the honorific さま after one's own name isn't a part of real Japanese, but may occur in some forms of media.
* しとけ (しておけ) -- [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8333 See a relevant forum thread.]
* やがる -- Expresses disdain for the clause preceding it. See [http://www.guidetojapanese.org/casual.html#part8 Tae Kim on the word].

A search in the [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/search.php discussion forums] on a particular word may yield more information.

In general when writing and speaking the Japanese language, try to favor the forms you learned in your grammar books over what you encounter in the media.

===Outdated language===
Sometimes a particular media takes place in historical times such as feudal Japan, or the 1980s. In either case, bear in mind that antiquated language may be in use, and that current events and pop culture likely influenced its creation.

===Non Japanese media translated to Japanese===
[The original author is not knowledgable enough to credibly write this section. But perhaps ''you'' can.]

==Particular media==
* [[Watching anime | Learning Japanese from watching anime]]
* [[Reading manga | Learning Japanese from reading manga]]

==Additional reading==
* [http://www.guidetojapanese.org/casual.html Tae Kim on slang]

Just the FAQs

Coco — Sat, 08 Mar 2008 06:40:16 GMT

Coco: /* Recommended reading material */ links

== Questions about TheJapanesePage.com ==

=== How do you get the avatar picture to appear under your username? ===

You can upload an avatar on your [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/edit_profile.php Edit Profile] page.

The avatar has to be 100x100 or smaller, and in either a format of .jpg, .gif or .png. If its not that small or the wrong format, then you can stick it in paint and adjust it that way. It should also be 20kb or smaller, this may be a problem with animated gifs.

If your image does not fit the regulation size, it will appear as a broken image. If you are having trouble with the image and one of the dimensions is 100px, try changing it to 99px. Also be sure that its file type is the same as given in the file name (renaming .art to .gif does '''not''' make an AOL picture into a .gif one).

=== How do I make a signature with a picture? ===

First of all you have to have a picture that fits the space allowed (100x400 pixels).

When you have a picture you want to use in your signature you have to upload it to an image hosting site. There are many free sites on the internet where you can upload and host your image. For instance: http://imageshack.us

When you’re done uploading your picture you get a link. As an example:
<pre>http://www.example.com/mysignatureimage.jpg</pre>
or something like that.

Edit your signature on your [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/edit_profile.php Edit Profile] page, add the following code (using your link of course):

<pre>[img]http://www.example.com/mysignatureimage.jpg[/img]</pre>

Remember that sig. graphics on the forum are limited to 100 pixels in height and 400 pixels in length. If you upload a larger image, you will quickly get messages asking you to alter or remove it.

=== What is the Shoutbox for? ===

Read about the Shoutbox [[Shoutbox|here]].

=== What are the Forum rules? ===

Read about the Forum posting rules [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/node/889 here] and [[Forum Etiquette]].

== Questions about using Japanese on my computer ==
=== Setting up a Mac OS X for Japanese ===

Japanese is built-in, and already loaded. You just have to activate it.

Navigate to [apple logo] -> System Preferences -> International -> Language

If you don't see "日本語" listed under the "Language" tab, click the "Edit List..." button. Scroll through the list and check the box next to "日本語".

Next, click the "Input Menu" tab. Scroll through the list and make sure the box for "あ Kotoeri" is checked. Also, at the bottom, there is an optional box "Show input menu in menu bar" that you can check to see the currently running input method next to your clock.

This only applies to OS X. For the steps on OS 9, please refer to [http://www.nihongoweb.com/Computing/JLK.html Nihongoweb's Instructions].

=== Windows Instructions ===

[http://www.declan-software.com/japanese_ime Installing the Japanese IME] is the best place to look for good instructions. [http://greggman.com/japan/xp-ime/xp-ime.htm GMAN: Windows XP Japanese Input] is also very thorough.

A detailed tutorial with screenshots for Windows XP can be found [http://fredart.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4149 here]. A follow up tutorial on using the Windows [[IME]] can be found [http://fredart.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4732 here]. Or go straight to [http://support.microsoft.com/kb/177561/ Microsoft].

=== Setting up Windows XP for Japanese ===

Navigate to Start -> Control Panel -> Date, Time, Language, and Regional Options -> Regional and Language Options -> Languages Tab

Check "Install files for East Asian languages" -> Details -> Add

Select "Japanese" from the drop down list and press OK

Click Language bar. Check "Show language bar on desktop". Click [EN] (English) and change it to [JP] (Japanese). Click "Input Mode" and change it from '''A''' (Direct Input) to あ (Hiragana) or ア (Katakana).

A good guide about setting up language and using the language bar is here http://greggman.com/japan/xp-ime/xp-ime.htm

=== Using a Japanese Keyboard ===

==== Windows ====
Some instructions for Windows users: http://www.kurnspatrick.com/Support/keyboardmapping.htm

==== Macintosh ====
Mac supports Japanese keyboards out of the box with very little/no configuration.

==== Linux / XWindows / X.org ====
Linux also supports Japanese keyboards out of the box, but if your mapping is incorrect, it's a simple fix.

If your keyboard mapping is wrong in Linux, edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf as root with the following command.
<pre>sudo nano /etc/X11/xorg.conf</pre>
Look for the InputDevice for "Generic Keyboard". It should look like similar to the following:
<pre>Section "InputDevice"
Identifier "Generic Keyboard"
Driver "kbd"
Option "CoreKeyboard"
Option "XkbRules" "xorg"
Option "XkbModel" "pc105"
Option "XkbLayout" "us"
Option "XkbOptions" "lv3:ralt_switch"
EndSection</pre>

Change the "XkbModel" and "XkbLayout" options to Japanese layout like so:
<pre> Option "XkbModel" "jp106"
Option "XkbLayout" "jp"
</pre>
Save the file, and restart the X server by rebooting or hitting <ctrl>+<alt>+<Back Space>

=== Windows Mobile 5 ===
For this system, you will need Bagoj's Japanese language pack, and if your PDA's display is QVGA, also the QVGA files.

Except for needing to decompress the QVGA files on a PC, all the following work is done on the PDA itself.

1. Download and install the cab. If you have a VGA device, skip to step 4.

(QVGA ONLY DEVICES, Contine...)

2. Download and decompress the QVGA files.

3. Place these files in the Windows directory, overwriting the files with the same names from the main cab. I did this by simply decompressing these files to a folder on a memory card my PDA can accept, and copying them with the file manager on the device.

(ALL DEVICES Continue)

4. Reset your device.

You will now have a window that can be moved almost anywhere on the screen. the first button turns the IME on and off, the second selects the type of character to input when in keyboard or character recognition modes.

Multibox will allow you to directly input your character by drawing them in the boxes. Stroke order seems to be important.

Radical List allows you to select Kanji by radical.

Stroke list allows you to select Kanji by number of strokes.

Character Autocomplete allows you to draw a partial Kanji, and select the appropriate one from a list. Stroke order seems important.

Some of these may display a security warning initially, saying that it requires running a program from an untrusted publisher. Simply tap yes to get that specific editor. Normally, this only will happen the first time an editor is run, also, this will normally only affect the QVGA devices.

Download the [http://www.asukal.jp/WM5/BagojsINPUT.zip main cab here].

Download the [http://bagoj.info2k1.hu/downloads/ppc/japanese/qvgasips.zip QVGA files here].

=== How do you type ゐゑヰヱ? ===

It depends on your [[IME]].

{| class="wikitable"
! IME !! Type This !! Get This
|+
! Anthy
| xwi || ゐ
|+
! Anthy
| xwe || ゑ
|+
| || colspan='2' | use F7 to get katakana versions
|+
! MS IME*
| wi || ゐ
|+
! MS IME
| we || ゑ
|+
|}

* Note that with MS IME you must henkan (type space) after entering we / wi to get desired character.
[http://www.sljfaq.org/w/MS_IME MS IME romaji table]

===ARRGH! I just can't enter Japanese.===

If, for whatever reason, you can't install an IME then there is ...
* [http://ajaxime.chasen.org/ Online IME. This is great!]
* [http://www.mauvecloud.net/charsets/asian/fastromaji.html romaji conversion]
* [http://www.physics.ucla.edu/~grosenth/jwpce.html JWPce a free downloadable Japanese text wordprocessor]
* [http://wakan.manga.cz/ Wakan: another free downloadable Japanese text wordprocessor with a nice example sentences package]
* [http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/jviewer.html Japanese WWW Page viewer - Displays Japanese web pages with images of the kanji/kana]

== "How do I say or write '....' in Japanese?" questions ==
You can try the wiki page [[How do I say "...." in Japanese?]].

You can also try a [[Dictionaries|dictionary]].

Alternatively, you can search the [http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/tanakacorpus.html Tanaka Corpus] through [http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?10 WWWJDIC].

These kinds of questions are very common. If you can't find an answer on the linked pages, do a forum search and you might well find the answer.

== Questions about learning Japanese ==
=== Where can I learn Japanese?===

Here. That is from this WagaWiki (look at the [[Main Page]] and the categories Practice and Grammar). Also [http://www.thejapanesepage.com TheJapanesePage.Com] (look at forum posts, articles, lesson links from the navigation bar etc).

===Can somebody teach me Japanese?===

Nobody is going to do '''everything''' for you for free. Post sensible specific questions in the forums and people will probably answer them. Practice writing Japanese in the forums and people will probably correct it. Don't forget the option of textbooks (see [[Selecting a Japanese Textbook]]) and taking classes.

===What should I study first?===

Hiragana first. It is the absolute basic thing to learn. It's easy enough to understand and utilise within a week or so and it goes very far to help you understand Japanese. Katakana is usually the next step. Katakana phonetically spell out foreign words in Japanese. Both syllabaries have the same sounds, but different characters. After that, learning is much easier.

===Do I really have to learn Kanji?===
If you want to be able to read and write passably in Japanese, yes. Kanji aren't difficult, but learning them is time consuming. They also help to make the spoken language easier to understand because it clarifies how words share the same roots in the Japanese mind.

Learn to love them early on and it will make your learning swifter and far more pleasant.

===What about Manga and Anime?===
see: [[Learning Japanese from media]]

===Where can I find some audio files of Japanese?===

*[http://www.japanesepod101.com Japanese Pod 101] has daily podcasts with Japanese lessons.
*[http://www.japancast.net Japancast] has weekly lesson podcasts, and links to humorous video clips.
*[http://www.nhk.or.jp/lesson/ NHK] has weekly lesson broadcasts in a number of languages, which are archived on their website.

===Why are some words written in a combination of kanji and hiragana? Why not in all kanji or all hiragana?===

Originally, Japanese was written in all kanji, but Japanese, unlike Chinese, is a highly inflected language, and inevitably certain kanji started to be used purely for phonetic value to represent the verb and adjective inflections and the particles. Eventually, these became simplified in a couple of different ways, resulting in the katakana and hiragana syllabaries.

In childrens' books, Japanese is written in all hiragana, but the use of kanji makes words easier to distinguish, especially for foreign language learners with small vocabularies.

How to know when to use kanji and when to use hiragana? A mixture of experience and esthetics. Many words that can be written in kanji are usually written in kana in modern Japanese. Also, Japanese try to maintain a balance between kanji and kana for esthetic reasons.

===What's the difference between on and kun readings, and how do I know when to use them?===

On readings are the way the Japanese heard the kanji pronounced when they borrowed them from Chinese. They are usually used in compounds and suru verbs.

Kun readings are native Japanese words to which the kanji have been applied according to the meaning of the kanji. The are usually used in stand-alone kanji or in conjugated words (-i adjectives and verbs.)

Since there are often two or three on and kun readings, and sometimes up to a dozen kun readings for a kanji, the only way to be sure how to read a word containing a kanji is to learn the word and the reading it uses.

== Questions about TheJapanesePage members ==

===Is anyone here Japanese?===

The short answer is yes. The more complex answer depends on the reason for asking this question. In general, unless studying very advanced Japanese, there are plenty of non-Japanese members that can answer any question accurately. The native Japanese usually only step in to answer if one of the other members answers incorrectly. Just remember that asking specifically for a Japanese person to answer a queston is usually considered rude and can alienate other members.

If a Japanese person is needed to fill out some kind of survey, then these requests are more tolerated. Follow standard survey practices, otherwise some who might be willing to take the survey may lose interest.

===Finding Penpals===

If on the other hand you are looking for a penpal it is better to use one of the standard pen pal connection venues. These are some links to sites some members have used.
*[http://www.japan-guide.com/ Japan Guide]
*[http://www.tpn.info The Penpals Network]
*[http://www.nk.rim.or.jp/~hirokun/index2.html Penpal Net]
*[http://www.mylanguageexchange.com/ My Language Exchange]
*[http://www.polyglot-learn-language.com/ Polyglot Learn Language]
*[http://www.worldfriend.net/ World Friend]

A few notes about penpals:
*Don't trick a penpal into thinking you have a higher level of Japanese ability than you do. In other words, don't post to the forum asking for entire e-mails to be translated (either way). Stay within your level of Japanese -- if your Japanese is almost nonexistent, then get a penpal who knows English.
*Don't post the penpal's private e-mails to you onto TJP unless you have gotten your penpal's permission to do so.

===What are these people talking about?===

Over the years, a few threads and posters have become legendary and the subject of various in-jokes that act as [[TJP Shibboleths | shibboleths]]. Unlike normal shibboleths they are not meant to exclude, but they do confuse people from time-to-time.

==Questions about Japanese culture==

===Tattoos and Japan===

*[[Why we don't do Japanese tattoos]]
*[[Tattoos in Japan]]

== Recommended reading material ==

Some of your questions have already been discussed on the forums. Please check these threads.

* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4258 外人 vs 外国人 (gaijin vs gaikokujin)]
* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3208 外人? (gaijin?)]
* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3724 How not to be a Gaijin?!?]
* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3016 the right kind of gaijin?]
* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2843 Does Japan hate me?]
* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6972 Girls and Gaijins]
[[Category:TheJapanesePage.Com]]

Just the FAQs

Coco — Sat, 08 Mar 2008 06:27:11 GMT

Coco: /* What are the Forum rules? */ link update( FAQ? rule?)

== Questions about TheJapanesePage.com ==

=== How do you get the avatar picture to appear under your username? ===

You can upload an avatar on your [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/edit_profile.php Edit Profile] page.

The avatar has to be 100x100 or smaller, and in either a format of .jpg, .gif or .png. If its not that small or the wrong format, then you can stick it in paint and adjust it that way. It should also be 20kb or smaller, this may be a problem with animated gifs.

If your image does not fit the regulation size, it will appear as a broken image. If you are having trouble with the image and one of the dimensions is 100px, try changing it to 99px. Also be sure that its file type is the same as given in the file name (renaming .art to .gif does '''not''' make an AOL picture into a .gif one).

=== How do I make a signature with a picture? ===

First of all you have to have a picture that fits the space allowed (100x400 pixels).

When you have a picture you want to use in your signature you have to upload it to an image hosting site. There are many free sites on the internet where you can upload and host your image. For instance: http://imageshack.us

When you’re done uploading your picture you get a link. As an example:
<pre>http://www.example.com/mysignatureimage.jpg</pre>
or something like that.

Edit your signature on your [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/edit_profile.php Edit Profile] page, add the following code (using your link of course):

<pre>[img]http://www.example.com/mysignatureimage.jpg[/img]</pre>

Remember that sig. graphics on the forum are limited to 100 pixels in height and 400 pixels in length. If you upload a larger image, you will quickly get messages asking you to alter or remove it.

=== What is the Shoutbox for? ===

Read about the Shoutbox [[Shoutbox|here]].

=== What are the Forum rules? ===

Read about the Forum posting rules [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/node/889 here] and [[Forum Etiquette]].

== Questions about using Japanese on my computer ==
=== Setting up a Mac OS X for Japanese ===

Japanese is built-in, and already loaded. You just have to activate it.

Navigate to [apple logo] -> System Preferences -> International -> Language

If you don't see "日本語" listed under the "Language" tab, click the "Edit List..." button. Scroll through the list and check the box next to "日本語".

Next, click the "Input Menu" tab. Scroll through the list and make sure the box for "あ Kotoeri" is checked. Also, at the bottom, there is an optional box "Show input menu in menu bar" that you can check to see the currently running input method next to your clock.

This only applies to OS X. For the steps on OS 9, please refer to [http://www.nihongoweb.com/Computing/JLK.html Nihongoweb's Instructions].

=== Windows Instructions ===

[http://www.declan-software.com/japanese_ime Installing the Japanese IME] is the best place to look for good instructions. [http://greggman.com/japan/xp-ime/xp-ime.htm GMAN: Windows XP Japanese Input] is also very thorough.

A detailed tutorial with screenshots for Windows XP can be found [http://fredart.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4149 here]. A follow up tutorial on using the Windows [[IME]] can be found [http://fredart.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4732 here]. Or go straight to [http://support.microsoft.com/kb/177561/ Microsoft].

=== Setting up Windows XP for Japanese ===

Navigate to Start -> Control Panel -> Date, Time, Language, and Regional Options -> Regional and Language Options -> Languages Tab

Check "Install files for East Asian languages" -> Details -> Add

Select "Japanese" from the drop down list and press OK

Click Language bar. Check "Show language bar on desktop". Click [EN] (English) and change it to [JP] (Japanese). Click "Input Mode" and change it from '''A''' (Direct Input) to あ (Hiragana) or ア (Katakana).

A good guide about setting up language and using the language bar is here http://greggman.com/japan/xp-ime/xp-ime.htm

=== Using a Japanese Keyboard ===

==== Windows ====
Some instructions for Windows users: http://www.kurnspatrick.com/Support/keyboardmapping.htm

==== Macintosh ====
Mac supports Japanese keyboards out of the box with very little/no configuration.

==== Linux / XWindows / X.org ====
Linux also supports Japanese keyboards out of the box, but if your mapping is incorrect, it's a simple fix.

If your keyboard mapping is wrong in Linux, edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf as root with the following command.
<pre>sudo nano /etc/X11/xorg.conf</pre>
Look for the InputDevice for "Generic Keyboard". It should look like similar to the following:
<pre>Section "InputDevice"
Identifier "Generic Keyboard"
Driver "kbd"
Option "CoreKeyboard"
Option "XkbRules" "xorg"
Option "XkbModel" "pc105"
Option "XkbLayout" "us"
Option "XkbOptions" "lv3:ralt_switch"
EndSection</pre>

Change the "XkbModel" and "XkbLayout" options to Japanese layout like so:
<pre> Option "XkbModel" "jp106"
Option "XkbLayout" "jp"
</pre>
Save the file, and restart the X server by rebooting or hitting <ctrl>+<alt>+<Back Space>

=== Windows Mobile 5 ===
For this system, you will need Bagoj's Japanese language pack, and if your PDA's display is QVGA, also the QVGA files.

Except for needing to decompress the QVGA files on a PC, all the following work is done on the PDA itself.

1. Download and install the cab. If you have a VGA device, skip to step 4.

(QVGA ONLY DEVICES, Contine...)

2. Download and decompress the QVGA files.

3. Place these files in the Windows directory, overwriting the files with the same names from the main cab. I did this by simply decompressing these files to a folder on a memory card my PDA can accept, and copying them with the file manager on the device.

(ALL DEVICES Continue)

4. Reset your device.

You will now have a window that can be moved almost anywhere on the screen. the first button turns the IME on and off, the second selects the type of character to input when in keyboard or character recognition modes.

Multibox will allow you to directly input your character by drawing them in the boxes. Stroke order seems to be important.

Radical List allows you to select Kanji by radical.

Stroke list allows you to select Kanji by number of strokes.

Character Autocomplete allows you to draw a partial Kanji, and select the appropriate one from a list. Stroke order seems important.

Some of these may display a security warning initially, saying that it requires running a program from an untrusted publisher. Simply tap yes to get that specific editor. Normally, this only will happen the first time an editor is run, also, this will normally only affect the QVGA devices.

Download the [http://www.asukal.jp/WM5/BagojsINPUT.zip main cab here].

Download the [http://bagoj.info2k1.hu/downloads/ppc/japanese/qvgasips.zip QVGA files here].

=== How do you type ゐゑヰヱ? ===

It depends on your [[IME]].

{| class="wikitable"
! IME !! Type This !! Get This
|+
! Anthy
| xwi || ゐ
|+
! Anthy
| xwe || ゑ
|+
| || colspan='2' | use F7 to get katakana versions
|+
! MS IME*
| wi || ゐ
|+
! MS IME
| we || ゑ
|+
|}

* Note that with MS IME you must henkan (type space) after entering we / wi to get desired character.
[http://www.sljfaq.org/w/MS_IME MS IME romaji table]

===ARRGH! I just can't enter Japanese.===

If, for whatever reason, you can't install an IME then there is ...
* [http://ajaxime.chasen.org/ Online IME. This is great!]
* [http://www.mauvecloud.net/charsets/asian/fastromaji.html romaji conversion]
* [http://www.physics.ucla.edu/~grosenth/jwpce.html JWPce a free downloadable Japanese text wordprocessor]
* [http://wakan.manga.cz/ Wakan: another free downloadable Japanese text wordprocessor with a nice example sentences package]
* [http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/jviewer.html Japanese WWW Page viewer - Displays Japanese web pages with images of the kanji/kana]

== "How do I say or write '....' in Japanese?" questions ==
You can try the wiki page [[How do I say "...." in Japanese?]].

You can also try a [[Dictionaries|dictionary]].

Alternatively, you can search the [http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/tanakacorpus.html Tanaka Corpus] through [http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?10 WWWJDIC].

These kinds of questions are very common. If you can't find an answer on the linked pages, do a forum search and you might well find the answer.

== Questions about learning Japanese ==
=== Where can I learn Japanese?===

Here. That is from this WagaWiki (look at the [[Main Page]] and the categories Practice and Grammar). Also [http://www.thejapanesepage.com TheJapanesePage.Com] (look at forum posts, articles, lesson links from the navigation bar etc).

===Can somebody teach me Japanese?===

Nobody is going to do '''everything''' for you for free. Post sensible specific questions in the forums and people will probably answer them. Practice writing Japanese in the forums and people will probably correct it. Don't forget the option of textbooks (see [[Selecting a Japanese Textbook]]) and taking classes.

===What should I study first?===

Hiragana first. It is the absolute basic thing to learn. It's easy enough to understand and utilise within a week or so and it goes very far to help you understand Japanese. Katakana is usually the next step. Katakana phonetically spell out foreign words in Japanese. Both syllabaries have the same sounds, but different characters. After that, learning is much easier.

===Do I really have to learn Kanji?===
If you want to be able to read and write passably in Japanese, yes. Kanji aren't difficult, but learning them is time consuming. They also help to make the spoken language easier to understand because it clarifies how words share the same roots in the Japanese mind.

Learn to love them early on and it will make your learning swifter and far more pleasant.

===What about Manga and Anime?===
see: [[Learning Japanese from media]]

===Where can I find some audio files of Japanese?===

*[http://www.japanesepod101.com Japanese Pod 101] has daily podcasts with Japanese lessons.
*[http://www.japancast.net Japancast] has weekly lesson podcasts, and links to humorous video clips.
*[http://www.nhk.or.jp/lesson/ NHK] has weekly lesson broadcasts in a number of languages, which are archived on their website.

===Why are some words written in a combination of kanji and hiragana? Why not in all kanji or all hiragana?===

Originally, Japanese was written in all kanji, but Japanese, unlike Chinese, is a highly inflected language, and inevitably certain kanji started to be used purely for phonetic value to represent the verb and adjective inflections and the particles. Eventually, these became simplified in a couple of different ways, resulting in the katakana and hiragana syllabaries.

In childrens' books, Japanese is written in all hiragana, but the use of kanji makes words easier to distinguish, especially for foreign language learners with small vocabularies.

How to know when to use kanji and when to use hiragana? A mixture of experience and esthetics. Many words that can be written in kanji are usually written in kana in modern Japanese. Also, Japanese try to maintain a balance between kanji and kana for esthetic reasons.

===What's the difference between on and kun readings, and how do I know when to use them?===

On readings are the way the Japanese heard the kanji pronounced when they borrowed them from Chinese. They are usually used in compounds and suru verbs.

Kun readings are native Japanese words to which the kanji have been applied according to the meaning of the kanji. The are usually used in stand-alone kanji or in conjugated words (-i adjectives and verbs.)

Since there are often two or three on and kun readings, and sometimes up to a dozen kun readings for a kanji, the only way to be sure how to read a word containing a kanji is to learn the word and the reading it uses.

== Questions about TheJapanesePage members ==

===Is anyone here Japanese?===

The short answer is yes. The more complex answer depends on the reason for asking this question. In general, unless studying very advanced Japanese, there are plenty of non-Japanese members that can answer any question accurately. The native Japanese usually only step in to answer if one of the other members answers incorrectly. Just remember that asking specifically for a Japanese person to answer a queston is usually considered rude and can alienate other members.

If a Japanese person is needed to fill out some kind of survey, then these requests are more tolerated. Follow standard survey practices, otherwise some who might be willing to take the survey may lose interest.

===Finding Penpals===

If on the other hand you are looking for a penpal it is better to use one of the standard pen pal connection venues. These are some links to sites some members have used.
*[http://www.japan-guide.com/ Japan Guide]
*[http://www.tpn.info The Penpals Network]
*[http://www.nk.rim.or.jp/~hirokun/index2.html Penpal Net]
*[http://www.mylanguageexchange.com/ My Language Exchange]
*[http://www.polyglot-learn-language.com/ Polyglot Learn Language]
*[http://www.worldfriend.net/ World Friend]

A few notes about penpals:
*Don't trick a penpal into thinking you have a higher level of Japanese ability than you do. In other words, don't post to the forum asking for entire e-mails to be translated (either way). Stay within your level of Japanese -- if your Japanese is almost nonexistent, then get a penpal who knows English.
*Don't post the penpal's private e-mails to you onto TJP unless you have gotten your penpal's permission to do so.

===What are these people talking about?===

Over the years, a few threads and posters have become legendary and the subject of various in-jokes that act as [[TJP Shibboleths | shibboleths]]. Unlike normal shibboleths they are not meant to exclude, but they do confuse people from time-to-time.

==Questions about Japanese culture==

===Tattoos and Japan===

*[[Why we don't do Japanese tattoos]]
*[[Tattoos in Japan]]

== Recommended reading material ==

Some of your questions have already been discussed on the forums. Please check these threads.

* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=6&thread_id=4258 外人 vs 外国人 (gaijin vs gaikokujin)]
* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=7&thread_id=3208 外人? (gaijin?)]
* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=14&thread_id=3724 How not to be a Gaijin?!?]
* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=6&thread_id=3016 the right kind of gaijin?]
* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=14&thread_id=2843 Does Japan hate me?]
* [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=14&thread_id=6972 Girls and Gaijins]
[[Category:TheJapanesePage.Com]]

Shoutbox

Coco — Sat, 08 Mar 2008 06:19:37 GMT

Coco: /* Concluding remark */

===The shoutbox is for everybody to use.===

However to keep the contents from scrolling out of sight too fast please keep to questions that can be answered in only one or two short replies. Wide ranging or ambiguous questions should be asked in the appropriate forum. For the same reason the shoutbox is not suited for chatting - if you want to chat with someone then please see the [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/node/797 How do I get on Chat?] page. New users are advised to introduce themselves in the [http://www.thejapanesepage.com//forum/viewforum.php?f=16 Introductions] forum.

'''Do not use the shoutbox repeatedly without waiting for replies - that is spamming'''

===Good:===
* Is こんにちわ bad Japanese?
(Can be answered quickly)
*Hi, I'm new here - よろしく.
(A post in the Introductions forum as well will get longer replies)
===Bad:===
* Where can I find good sites on JLPT?
(Links don't display well in the Shoutbox)
* Please teach me about adverbs.
(Too wide ranging)
*I want to talk about/in Japanese, please reply!
(Sounds like chat)

===Concluding remark===
Please bear the above in mind, and have fun with the Shoutbox. 
Do you hate the Shoutbox? Just click the arrow icon on the Shoutbox.
[[Category:TheJapanesePage.Com]]

Shoutbox

Coco — Sat, 08 Mar 2008 06:18:24 GMT

Coco: /* The shoutbox is for everybody to use. */ Links updated

===The shoutbox is for everybody to use.===

However to keep the contents from scrolling out of sight too fast please keep to questions that can be answered in only one or two short replies. Wide ranging or ambiguous questions should be asked in the appropriate forum. For the same reason the shoutbox is not suited for chatting - if you want to chat with someone then please see the [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/node/797 How do I get on Chat?] page. New users are advised to introduce themselves in the [http://www.thejapanesepage.com//forum/viewforum.php?f=16 Introductions] forum.

'''Do not use the shoutbox repeatedly without waiting for replies - that is spamming'''

===Good:===
* Is こんにちわ bad Japanese?
(Can be answered quickly)
*Hi, I'm new here - よろしく.
(A post in the Introductions forum as well will get longer replies)
===Bad:===
* Where can I find good sites on JLPT?
(Links don't display well in the Shoutbox)
* Please teach me about adverbs.
(Too wide ranging)
*I want to talk about/in Japanese, please reply!
(Sounds like chat)

===Concluding remark===
Please bear the above in mind, and have fun with the Shoutbox. 
Do you hate the Shoutbox? [http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=20&thread_id=6761 He succeeded in deleting the Shotbox.] (?)

[[Category:TheJapanesePage.Com]]

Chatroom Schedule

Coco — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 10:57:11 GMT

Coco: /* Schedule */

==Chat Log Notice==
The Chat Server has recently been upgraded and the links to the logs are no longer valid. You can visit [http://chat.thejapanesepage.com:5224/logs] and find the new links to the chat logs. Once we are sure that the new Chat Server is working as expected we will update the links to the logs to point to the new location.
--[[User:Zengargoyle|Zengargoyle]] 03:07, 6 November 2006 (EST)

==Schedule==
{| class="wikitable"
! Date !! Start !! End !! Room !! What
|+
|25-11-2007 The last session (done) || 13:30(GMT)||15:30(GMT)||2007.jlpt3.kyuu|| 読解、語彙、文法、聞き取り [http://chat.thejapanesepage.com:5224/logs/2007.jlpt3.kyuu@conference.chat.thejapanesepage.com/2007/11/25.html (log)] ||
|+
|18-11-2007(done) ||13:30(GMT)||15:30(GMT)||Skype Chat (The chat room is not available)||読解、語彙、文法、定型表現 ||
|+
|11-11-2007(done)||13:30(GMT)||15:30(GMT)||2007.jlpt3.kyuu|| (行こう、食べよう、…) /casual volitional with other verbs (～おうと思う、～おうとする、…) 意志　～(よ)うと思う / ～(よ)うとする / ～ようにする / ～つもりだ / ことにする / にする[http://chat.thejapanesepage.com:5224/logs/2007.jlpt3.kyuu@conference.chat.thejapanesepage.com/2007/11/11.html (log)]||
|+
|04-11-2007(done) ||13:30(GMT)||15:30(GMT)||2007.jlpt3.kyuu||imperative (読め、食べろ、…) and negative imperative (食べるな、…)/*nasai "imperative" (読みなさい、食べなさい) 命令・禁止　(～なさい、～てはいけない)、許可(～てもいい～てもかまわない) [http://chat.thejapanesepage.com:5224/logs/2007.jlpt3.kyuu@conference.chat.thejapanesepage.com/2007/11/04.html (log)]||
|+
|28-10-2007 (done)||13:00(GMT)||15:00(GMT)||2007.jlpt3.kyuu||various uses of the -te form ～てから～ている～てみる、Verb＋ばかり、聞き取り[http://chat.thejapanesepage.com:5224/logs/2007.jlpt3.kyuu@conference.chat.thejapanesepage.com/2007/10/28.html (log)]||

|+
|21-10-2007 (done)||13:00(GMT||15:00(GMT)||2007.jlpt3.kyuu||special words *なかなか (considerably, quite..)*とにかく(anyway)*はず (expect)*ばあい (case)*つもり (plan)*ため ([for X’s] sake, for X)*まま（as it is）*わけ (reason), ～やすい/にくい、聞き取り [http://chat.thejapanesepage.com:5224/logs/2007.jlpt3.kyuu@conference.chat.thejapanesepage.com/2007/10/21.html (log)]||
|+
|14-10-2007(done)||12:30(GMT)||14:30(GMT)||2007.jlpt3.kyuu||comparative:ＡはＢより～/ＢよりＡのほうが～/ＡはＢほど～ない/ＡとＢと、どちらが～/以上・以下・倍・割, 聞き取り [http://chat.thejapanesepage.com:5224/logs/2007.jlpt3.kyuu@conference.chat.thejapanesepage.com/2007/10/14.html (log)]||
|+
|07-10-2007 (done)|| 13:00(GMT)||15:00(GMT)||2007.jlpt3.kyuu||聞き取り. nominalizers (の、こと)and turning adjectives into nouns (～さ). ということ( the fact that). Informal question forms. [http://chat.thejapanesepage.com:5224/logs/2007.jlpt3.kyuu@conference.chat.thejapanesepage.com/2007/10/07.html (log)]||
|+
|30-09-2007 (done)||13:00(GMT)||15:00(GMT)||2007.jlpt3.kyuu||番外編(後半)||
|+
|23-09-2007(done)|| 13:00(GMT)||15:00(GMT)||2007.jlpt.3kyuu||番外編(前半)||
|+
|16-09-2007(done) || 13:00(GMT)||15:00 (GMT) || 2007.jlpt.3kyuu||聴き取り．Passive, Causative,Causative passive. The session was arranged by Katafei-san. [http://chat.thejapanesepage.com:5224/logs/2007.jlpt3.kyuu@conference.chat.thejapanesepage.com/2007/09/16.html (log)]||
|+
|26-08-2007(done) ||12:30(GMT)||14:30(GMT)||2007.jlpt.3kyuu||聞き取り練習．推量表現(conjecture) The session was arranged by Disconnected-san.[http://chat.thejapanesepage.com:5224/logs/2007.jlpt3.kyuu@conference.chat.thejapanesepage.com/2007/08/26.html (log)]||
|+
|05-08-2007(done)||13:00(GMT)||15:00(GMT)||2007.jlpt.3kyuu||自動詞と他動詞.読解．The session was arranged by Terence-san. [http://chat.thejapanesepage.com:5224/logs/2007.jlpt3.kyuu@conference.chat.thejapanesepage.com/2007/08/05.html (log)]||
|+
|01-07-2007 (done)|| 13:30(GMT)|| 15:30(GMT)||2007.jlpt.3.kyuu ||と/なら/ば/たら (conditionals) Tanuki-san sets the password.[http://chat.thejapanesepage.com:5224/logs/2007.jlpt.3.kyuu@conference.chat.thejapanesepage.com/2007/07/01.html (log)]
|+
| 17-06-2007 (done) || 12:00(GMT) || 13:30 (GMT) || 2007.jlpt.3.kyuu ||あげる/もらう/くれる　SS-san sets the password.　[http://chat.thejapanesepage.com:5224/logs/2007.jlpt.3.kyuu@conference.chat.thejapanesepage.com/2007/06/17.html (log)]
|+
| 17-06-2007 (done) || 00:00(GMT) || 02:00 (GMT) || 2007.jlpt.3.kyuu ||あげる/もらう/くれる Tanuki-san sets the password. [http://chat.thejapanesepage.com:5224/logs/2007.jlpt.3.kyuu@conference.chat.thejapanesepage.com/2007/06/17.html (log)] See also [[JLPT3 Chat Resources Summary]] page.
|+
| - || - || - || 変化が生命をもらたす - [[Change Brings Life]] || 完成した ^^ 
|+
|For the year 2006 || || ||
|+
| 10-09-2006 (done) || 21:00 (JST) 12:00 (GMT)|| 23:00 (JST) 14:00 (GMT) || JLPT4 || Practised i-adjectives, adjective conjugations, some past year papers questions review. Tanuki asked about the word 側 (soba vs waga)
|+
| 17-09-2006 (done) || 21:00 (JST) 12:00 (GMT)|| 23:30 (JST) 14:30 (GMT) || JLPT4 || Practised na-adjectives, connecting adjectives, verb -te form, connecting verbs
|+
| 24-09-2006 (done) || 12:00 (GMT)|| 14:30 (GMT) || jlpt4.study.group || Differences between だけ and しか, usage of あげる and くれる. 
|+
| 01-10-2006 (done) || 12:00 (GMT) || 14:00 (GMT) || jlpt4.study.group|| Particles (ha vs ga, ni, de, wo), little review of some adverbs that appear in the test. 
|+
| 08-10-2006 (done) || 12:00 (GMT) || 15:00 (GMT) || jlpt4.study.group || 
ごろ、ぐらい、～verb(past)あとで、ときに, past paper review and discussion. 
|+
| 15-10-2006 (done) || 12:00 (GMT) || 14:00 (GMT) || jlpt4.study.group || koto / koto ga dekiru / verb + koto, nominalization with no, sou desu [ka/ne]
|+
| 22-10-2006 (done) || 12:15 (GMT) || 14:45 (GMT) || jlpt4.study.group || も、いつも
|+
| 29-10-2006 (done) || 12:00 (GMT) || 15:15 (GMT) || jlpt4.study.group || Quizzes!
|+
| 05-11-2006(done) || 12:00 (GMT) || 14:30 (GMT) || jlpt4.study.group || Complete quizzes, listening comprehension ...
|+
| 12-11-2006(done) || 12:00 (GMT) || 14:30 (GMT) || jlpt4.study.group || Reading comprehension! 
|+
| 19-11-2006(done) || 12:00 (GMT) || 15:10 (GMT) || jlpt4.study.group || 文字(もじ) 　
|+
| 26-11-2006(done) || 12:00 (GMT) || 15:30 (GMT) || jlpt4.study.group || Last session!
|+

|+

==Links==
See also [[Current events]].

This link may help you finding right hour for your timezone: http://www.timezoneconverter.com/cgi-bin/tzc.tzc
[[Category:Chat]]

Talk:Coco's notes

Coco — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 02:32:17 GMT

Coco: /* ???????? */

==発音聞き分けテスト==

Infidel-san, [http://exp.atrcall.jp/entry/entry_01.html Here is the page.] if you don't mind, please add your score, thank you.
 
私が平均レベルだと思われるのも癪なので、日本人のみなさんもよろしければ挑戦してスコアを伸ばしてください。--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 11:28, 26 August 2007 (EDT)
{| class="wikitable"
|
|''' R/L聞き分け'''
|''' B/V 聞き分け'''
|''' S/TH聞き分け '''
|''' 母音聞き分け '''
|-
|''C (Japanese)''
| 68%
| 47%
| 75%
| 36%
|-
|'''G ( native speaker)'''
| 100%
| 91%
| 87%
| 72%
|-
|'''I ( native speaker)'''
|99%
|93%
|100%
|81%
|}

== Typo ==

ココさん、
そのページは変な文あります　この文は詳しくはこちらをを参照して下さいと言います。「をを」は間違いだすか。ありがとうございます。--[[User:Infidel|Infidel]] 02:38, 27 August 2007 (EDT)
:: Infidel-san のご指摘のとおり、「を'''を'''」は間違いです。「詳しくはこちらを参照してください」が正しい文章です。
::: そのページ'''に'''は変な文があります。そこ'''に'''は「詳しくはこちら''をを''参照して下さい」と'''書いてあります'''。「をを」は間違い'''で'''はありませんか。
::: ご参考までに。＾＾--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 03:45, 27 August 2007 (EDT)

==Test Comments==

On the first test, I noticed that Lead was misspelled leed. I never heard of the word Lank, and the second girl's accent made it hard to hear the r when it was second in a word, like Broom.

Second test was much harder to distinguish many words. I had to hit repeat a lot more often.

Last test was extremely difficult and unfair I thought. First, the a and backwards c hot-rock and caught-walk respectively sounds sound exactly the same to me. In fact, if I were to tell someone how to pronounce caught, I would say like cot or hot. I've always learned that augh = o (ah) sound. Probably a bigger deal though, there was no button for the "I" sound (あい) and I definitely heard it a few times but there was no button for it. Also, the nonsesse syllables made the test very confusing. I had to hit replay an average of 5 times per question before I felt confident I was isolating the correct sound.

==お引っ越しの準備==

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=17&thread_id=2203#18318 Translation Needed]jeshewood-san
[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=17&thread_id=4997&rowstart=0 日米交換船]
[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=6&thread_id=5297&rowstart=0 It's a boy](key word:imperious family)
[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=10&thread_id=4068&rowstart=0 Site Move Information]06.06
[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=6&thread_id=4849#48476 人vs 方 ( 御方様)]
[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=6&thread_id=6062&rowstart=40 terms of endearment]

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=17&thread_id=2988#25093 Trial (line 1-4)]
[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=17&thread_id=3186#27451 Crashed Trial (line 5-10)]
[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=11&thread_id=2313 Please correct me]( key word: hcp)

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=9&thread_id=7580 Related curricula – 3kyuu study group]

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=14&thread_id=1145#8960 Saさんに敬意を表して]

[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=14&thread_id=1923#15563 Haiku]
[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=14&thread_id=3995&rowstart=0 Rice planting]
[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=20&thread_id=5509#58453 Arrr! How be ye t'day? Arrr!]
[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=20&thread_id=10395 Bad grade... suggestions?]

==便利な表現==

"We ran into '''unexpected issues with''' the data migration scripts on third try. I would like to try this early next week once my senior developer returns. I would like to confirm once more in dev first then redo this hopefully next week."

Talk:Coco's notes

Coco — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 16:20:35 GMT

Coco: /* ???????? */

Talk:Japanese colloquial contractions

Coco — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 12:14:14 GMT

Coco: /* ???? */

==こたない==
Hmm, on second thought, does こたない = ことじゃない?
:こたない comes from ことはない.「こたぁない」is also used. --[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 07:14, 17 January 2008 (EST)

==もん==

Isn't もん more often a slurring of the sentence ending particles も+の rather than 物／者?
:者の場合もあります。「この愚かもんめが!」といった場合の、「もん」は「者」が元の言葉です。「こんなもんいらない」といった場合は、「こんな物いらない」です。女の子が「わたし、お腹が空いちゃったんだもん」という場合は、[http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/search.php?MT=%A4%E2%A4%CE&kind=jn&mode=0&base=1&row=2 もの]の転訛です。--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 05:24, 26 May 2007 (EDT)

Thanks for your explanation. Now I see. I've found that [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_grammar#Euphonic_changes_.28.E9.9F.B3.E4.BE.BF_onbin.29 Wikipedia] uses the word "Colloquial contractions".
I hope Gundaetipo-san read this.--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 19:05, 18 June 2007 (EDT)

:"slur" doesn't necessarily mean a bad or insulting word. See [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slur dictionary]. I was going by definition 7 (related to definition 2). Infidel was going by definition 8 (related to definition 3). In my experience definition 2 is most primary but Infidel probably disagrees with me. Anyway, coco has found what the Wikipedia calls it so let's call it that. "Colloquial contractions".

Talk:Intransitive/Transitive verb

Coco — Mon, 07 Jan 2008 00:01:18 GMT

Coco:

Is ~eru---~su always ~eru---~asu ? [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 22:33, 14 August 2007 (EDT)
:: yes, I had put 消える(eru)-消す(su) in "others". I should have written " asu". Thanks for pointing out.--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 09:57, 15 August 2007 (EDT)

What do you think of 抜ける and 抜く? They weren't in the old version of the article. I was going to put them in the ~eru/~u table but my dictionary has some sentences for 抜ける that use を so I'm not sure. [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 17:43, 5 January 2008 (EST)

:明けましておめでとうございます。今年もよろしくお願いします。＾＾ 
::恭賀新年!
:Yes, you are right. I added some more words. This page became very nice, easy to see.Thank you for editing.--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 19:10, 5 January 2008 (EST)
::Thanks for the additions. I think most folks have Rikai chan so furigana isn't necessary. [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 21:04, 5 January 2008 (EST)
I see, but 挫くis not 常用漢字. So it would be better to put かな on 挫くand 解く( has two readings), I think.--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 23:28, 5 January 2008 (EST)

Here is a sample sentences of 抜ける and 抜く. 
パソコンのケーブルを抜く。 
パソコンのケーブルが抜ける。 --[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 18:57, 6 January 2008 (EST)

Talk:Intransitive/Transitive verb

Coco — Sun, 06 Jan 2008 23:57:35 GMT

Coco:

Is ~eru---~su always ~eru---~asu ? [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 22:33, 14 August 2007 (EDT)
:: yes, I had put 消える(eru)-消す(su) in "others". I should have written " asu". Thanks for pointing out.--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 09:57, 15 August 2007 (EDT)

What do you think of 抜ける and 抜く? They weren't in the old version of the article. I was going to put them in the ~eru/~u table but my dictionary has some sentences for 抜ける that use を so I'm not sure. [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 17:43, 5 January 2008 (EST)

:明けましておめでとうございます。今年もよろしくお願いします。＾＾ 
::恭賀新年!
:Yes, you are right. I added some more words. This page became very nice, easy to see.Thank you for editing.--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 19:10, 5 January 2008 (EST)
::Thanks for the additions. I think most folks have Rikai chan so furigana isn't necessary. [[User:Gundaetiapo|Gundaetiapo]] 21:04, 5 January 2008 (EST)
I see, but 挫くis not 常用漢字. So it would be better to put かな on 挫くand 解く( has two readings), I think.--[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 23:28, 5 January 2008 (EST)

I'm not sure about the "てある construction" explanation. 
上がっている/上げている 
決まっている/決めている 

割れている/割っている 
折れている/折っている 
etc.

Here is a sample sentences of 抜ける and 抜く. 
パソコンのケーブルを抜く。 
パソコンのケーブルが抜ける。 --[[User:Coco|Coco　]] 18:57, 6 January 2008 (EST)

Intransitive/Transitive verb

Coco — Sun, 06 Jan 2008 04:29:17 GMT

Coco: /* ~eru/~u type */

Intransitive and transitive verbs

==~aru/~eru type==
{| class="wikitable"
|-
|'''Intransitive ~aru'''
|'''Transitive ~eru'''
|-
|上がる
|上げる
|-
|下がる
|下げる
|-
|かかる
|かける
|-
|助かる
|助ける
|-
|見つかる
|見つける
|-
|閉まる
|閉める
|-
|集まる
|集める
|-
|決まる
|決める
|-
|止まる
|止める
|-
|始まる
|始める
|-
|終わる
|終える
|-
|変わる
|変える
|-
|伝わる
|伝える
|-
|広がる
|広げる
|-
|}

==~u/~eru type==
{| class="wikitable"
|-
|'''Intransitive ~u'''
|'''Transitive ~eru'''
|-
|開く
|開ける
|-
|続く
|続ける
|-
|つく
|つける
|-
|片づく
|片づける
|-
|届く
|届ける
|-
|立つ
|立てる
|-
|}

==~reru/~ru type==
{| class="wikitable"
|-
|'''Intransitive ~reru'''
|'''Transitive ~ru'''
|-
|切れる
|切る
|-
|折れる
|折る
|-
|割れる
|割る
|-
|破れる
|破る
|-
|}

==~eru/~u type==
{| class="wikitable"
|-
|'''Intransitive ~eru'''
|'''Transitive ~u'''
|-
|見える
|見る
|-
|焼ける
|焼く
|-
|煮える
|煮る
|-
|解 (ほど/ と) ける
|解 (ほど/と) く
|-
|むける
|むく
|-
|裂ける
|裂く
|-
|抜ける
|抜く
|-
|挫 (くじ) ける
|挫 (くじ) く
|-
|}

==~iru/~osu type==
{| class="wikitable"
|-
|'''Intransitive ~iru'''
|'''Transitive ~osu'''
|-
|起きる
|起こす
|-
|落ちる
|落とす
|-
|降りる
|降ろす
|-
|}

==~ru/~su type==
{| class="wikitable"
|-
|'''Intransitive ~ru'''
|'''Transitive ~su'''
|-
|移る
|移す
|-
|写る
|写す
|-
|返る
|返す
|-
|直る
|直す
|-
|治る
|治す
|-
|わたる
|わたす
|-
|残る
|残す
|-
|通る
|通す
|-
|}

==~eru/~asu type==
{| class="wikitable"
|-
|'''Intransitive ~eru'''
|'''Transitive ~asu'''
|-
|出る
|出す
|-
|溶ける
|溶かす
|-
|逃げる
|逃がす
|-
|冷える
|冷やす
|-
|冷める
|冷ます
|-
|増える
|増やす
|-
|}

==Miscellaneous types==
{| class="wikitable"
|-
|'''Intransitive (misc)'''
|'''Transitive (misc)'''
|-
|入る*
|入れる*
|-
|消える
|消す
|-
|沸く
|沸かす
|-
|捕まる
|捕まえる
|-
|聞こえる
|聞く
|-
|離れる
|離す
|-
|}

\*[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=7&thread_id=6823#79031 related post]

[[category: vocabulary]]

Talk:Intransitive/Transitive verb

Coco — Sun, 06 Jan 2008 04:28:46 GMT

Coco:

Talk:Intransitive/Transitive verb

Coco — Sun, 06 Jan 2008 00:10:05 GMT

Coco:

Intransitive/Transitive verb

Coco — Sun, 06 Jan 2008 00:03:10 GMT

Coco: /* ~eru/~u type */

Intransitive and transitive verbs

==~aru/~eru type==
{| class="wikitable"
|-
|'''Intransitive ~aru'''
|'''Transitive ~eru'''
|-
|上がる
|上げる
|-
|下がる
|下げる
|-
|かかる
|かける
|-
|助かる
|助ける
|-
|見つかる
|見つける
|-
|閉まる
|閉める
|-
|集まる
|集める
|-
|決まる
|決める
|-
|止まる
|止める
|-
|始まる
|始める
|-
|終わる
|終える
|-
|変わる
|変える
|-
|伝わる
|伝える
|-
|広がる
|広げる
|-
|}

==~u/~eru type==
{| class="wikitable"
|-
|'''Intransitive ~u'''
|'''Transitive ~eru'''
|-
|開く
|開ける
|-
|続く
|続ける
|-
|つく
|つける
|-
|片づく
|片づける
|-
|届く
|届ける
|-
|立つ
|立てる
|-
|}

==~reru/~ru type==
{| class="wikitable"
|-
|'''Intransitive ~reru'''
|'''Transitive ~ru'''
|-
|切れる
|切る
|-
|折れる
|折る
|-
|割れる
|割る
|-
|破れる
|破る
|-
|}

==~eru/~u type==
{| class="wikitable"
|-
|'''Intransitive ~eru'''
|'''Transitive ~u'''
|-
|見える
|見る
|-
|焼ける
|焼く
|-
|煮 (に) える
|煮 (に) る
|-
|解 (ほど/ と) ける
|解 (ほど/と) く
|-
|むける
|むく
|-
|裂ける
|裂く
|-
|抜ける
|抜く
|-
|挫 (くじ) ける
|挫 (くじ) く
|-
|}

==~iru/~osu type==
{| class="wikitable"
|-
|'''Intransitive ~iru'''
|'''Transitive ~osu'''
|-
|起きる
|起こす
|-
|落ちる
|落とす
|-
|降りる
|降ろす
|-
|}

==~ru/~su type==
{| class="wikitable"
|-
|'''Intransitive ~ru'''
|'''Transitive ~su'''
|-
|移る
|移す
|-
|写る
|写す
|-
|返る
|返す
|-
|直る
|直す
|-
|治る
|治す
|-
|わたる
|わたす
|-
|残る
|残す
|-
|}

==~eru/~asu type==
{| class="wikitable"
|-
|'''Intransitive ~eru'''
|'''Transitive ~asu'''
|-
|出る
|出す
|-
|溶ける
|溶かす
|-
|逃げる
|逃がす
|-
|冷える
|冷やす
|-
|冷める
|冷ます
|-
|増える
|増やす
|-
|}

==Miscellaneous types==
{| class="wikitable"
|-
|'''Intransitive (misc)'''
|'''Transitive (misc)'''
|-
|入る*
|入れる*
|-
|消える
|消す
|-
|沸く
|沸かす
|-
|捕まる
|捕まえる
|-
|聞こえる
|聞く
|-
|}

\*[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=7&thread_id=6823#79031 related post]

[[category: vocabulary]]

Intransitive/Transitive verb

Coco — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 23:49:21 GMT

Coco: /* ~ru/~su type */

Intransitive and transitive verbs

==~aru/~eru type==
{| class="wikitable"
|-
|'''Intransitive ~aru'''
|'''Transitive ~eru'''
|-
|上がる
|上げる
|-
|下がる
|下げる
|-
|かかる
|かける
|-
|助かる
|助ける
|-
|見つかる
|見つける
|-
|閉まる
|閉める
|-
|集まる
|集める
|-
|決まる
|決める
|-
|止まる
|止める
|-
|始まる
|始める
|-
|終わる
|終える
|-
|変わる
|変える
|-
|伝わる
|伝える
|-
|広がる
|広げる
|-
|}

==~u/~eru type==
{| class="wikitable"
|-
|'''Intransitive ~u'''
|'''Transitive ~eru'''
|-
|開く
|開ける
|-
|続く
|続ける
|-
|つく
|つける
|-
|片づく
|片づける
|-
|届く
|届ける
|-
|立つ
|立てる
|-
|}

==~reru/~ru type==
{| class="wikitable"
|-
|'''Intransitive ~reru'''
|'''Transitive ~ru'''
|-
|切れる
|切る
|-
|折れる
|折る
|-
|割れる
|割る
|-
|破れる
|破る
|-
|}

==~eru/~u type==
{| class="wikitable"
|-
|'''Intransitive ~eru'''
|'''Transitive ~u'''
|-
|見える
|見る
|-
|焼ける
|焼く
|-
|挫ける
|挫く
|-
|}

==~iru/~osu type==
{| class="wikitable"
|-
|'''Intransitive ~iru'''
|'''Transitive ~osu'''
|-
|起きる
|起こす
|-
|落ちる
|落とす
|-
|降りる
|降ろす
|-
|}

==~ru/~su type==
{| class="wikitable"
|-
|'''Intransitive ~ru'''
|'''Transitive ~su'''
|-
|移る
|移す
|-
|写る
|写す
|-
|返る
|返す
|-
|直る
|直す
|-
|治る
|治す
|-
|わたる
|わたす
|-
|残る
|残す
|-
|}

==~eru/~asu type==
{| class="wikitable"
|-
|'''Intransitive ~eru'''
|'''Transitive ~asu'''
|-
|出る
|出す
|-
|溶ける
|溶かす
|-
|逃げる
|逃がす
|-
|冷える
|冷やす
|-
|冷める
|冷ます
|-
|増える
|増やす
|-
|}

==Miscellaneous types==
{| class="wikitable"
|-
|'''Intransitive (misc)'''
|'''Transitive (misc)'''
|-
|入る*
|入れる*
|-
|消える
|消す
|-
|沸く
|沸かす
|-
|捕まる
|捕まえる
|-
|聞こえる
|聞く
|-
|}

\*[http://www.thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=7&thread_id=6823#79031 related post]

[[category: vocabulary]]